Postive / Negative Punishment / Reinforcement Explained

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 3:25 pm

On January 23 2008, 12:06 PM, pitacc wrote:Instead of a prong collar, what can you use for a very small dog with a delicate neck and a bad attitude?


What kind of dog? How old? and do you already practice NILIF (Nothing in life is free) with the dog?
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 23rd, 2008, 5:00 pm

I believe it's a terrier/chihuahua mix (if you look in her intro, there's a pic of the dog lying next to Mick).
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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 5:01 pm

On January 23 2008, 4:00 PM, pitbullmamaliz wrote:I believe it's a terrier/chihuahua mix (if you look in her intro, there's a pic of the dog lying next to Mick).


I really do need to look at intros alittle more often :|
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 5:04 pm

Hi Caroline...

Okay, of course you practice NILIF (I'm sure your mom has told you all about it)...

Can you describe to me some of the things she does?
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Postby pitacc » January 23rd, 2008, 5:38 pm

We do NILIF, and works great at my Moms house when we visit. At home I tell her to do something and she barks at me and takes her time.
She also nips and growls at us and I used to think it was cute until my Mom asked me if I would think the same thing if Pita was a big dog.
She is about seven pounds and I started feeding her raw a few weeks ago.
A friend is the one who is already there doing it when every one else is saying,
"Is there anything I can do?"
Mickey is blessed with many friends just like that. :)

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 23rd, 2008, 5:50 pm

Would a micro prong be appropriate? It shouldn't damage the neck as it's not like you'll be yanking it...
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 5:55 pm

On January 23 2008, 4:50 PM, pitbullmamaliz wrote:Would a micro prong be appropriate? It shouldn't damage the neck as it's not like you'll be yanking it...


That's EXACTLY what I was thinking...NOT a puppy prong...an actual MICRO prong...they're tiny...

What you need to start showing her is there is NO choice when you tell her to do something. She either does it or faces consequences..
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 23rd, 2008, 6:03 pm

Here's a link to the micro-prong: http://www.leerburg.com/prong.htm#micro
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 6:13 pm

Caroline, the big thing will be to actually get her to start listening...if a dog gets away with something bad even just one time, it takes another 50-150 times of correcting it to get rid of the behavior...but be patient...once she starts to figure out that there are consequences to her actions (or lack of action) she'll do so much better...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
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Postby pitacc » January 23rd, 2008, 6:15 pm

Thank you, I didn't know they make them that small. lol
And Pita listens to my Mom and never barks at her, she just does it at home. That's how she got her name. :rolleyes2:
A friend is the one who is already there doing it when every one else is saying,
"Is there anything I can do?"
Mickey is blessed with many friends just like that. :)

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 6:20 pm

On January 23 2008, 5:15 PM, pitacc wrote:Thank you, I didn't know they make them that small. lol
And Pita listens to my Mom and never barks at her, she just does it at home. That's how she got her name. :rolleyes2:


When she barks at you, give her a correction and tell her quiet...that should take care of that problem rather fast...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
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Postby pitacc » January 23rd, 2008, 6:28 pm

Okay, I'll try that. Thanks.
A friend is the one who is already there doing it when every one else is saying,
"Is there anything I can do?"
Mickey is blessed with many friends just like that. :)

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Postby katiek0417 » January 23rd, 2008, 6:57 pm

Oh, and one more thing...when you get the prong, put it on her, and let her wear it for a couple of days before correcting her with it...then try to leave it on her when she's supervised...

Also, the first few times you correct her, she will act like she is dying...she's not...I promise...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
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Postby BullyLady » July 24th, 2008, 4:41 pm

BritneyP wrote:For pet-type obedience, or even for Agility and things of that nature, you can probably get by with luring and free-shaping and strictly +R, but with dogs that do bitework, there is typically nothing more desireable for them and their drives can be so over the top that the amount of control and tolerance your dog needs to possess, simply cannot be acheived without compulsion.


I'm not sure I quite agree with that. My puppy has an almost alarming amount of energy and she is an extremely confident dog. What this means is that when we are out in public, like at training class, she is so busy saying hello to everyone and sniffing around that she literally CANNOT focus without some compulsion.

I don't like using compulsion on a dog her age, but quite honestly we didn't have any other choice. I think the key is just to not overdo the corrections, especially when introducing new commands or distractions.
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Postby BritneyP » July 24th, 2008, 4:51 pm

BullyLady wrote:
BritneyP wrote:For pet-type obedience, or even for Agility and things of that nature, you can probably get by with luring and free-shaping and strictly +R, but with dogs that do bitework, there is typically nothing more desireable for them and their drives can be so over the top that the amount of control and tolerance your dog needs to possess, simply cannot be acheived without compulsion.


I'm not sure I quite agree with that. My puppy has an almost alarming amount of energy and she is an extremely confident dog. What this means is that when we are out in public, like at training class, she is so busy saying hello to everyone and sniffing around that she literally CANNOT focus without some compulsion.

I don't like using compulsion on a dog her age, but quite honestly we didn't have any other choice. I think the key is just to not overdo the corrections, especially when introducing new commands or distractions.


Hmm.. maybe I came off wrong because I don't see where we disagree here? :|

I would classify your pup's behavior as a form of "play drive" and especially being a bully-type dog, she's going to have drive in one form or another. I don't use ANY compulsion in my dog's obedience until they are somewhere around a year old, and depending upon the individual dog, sometimes even longer. My GSD Cruiser, is 17 months old and has basically yet to see any form on compulsion because he is a relatively "soft" dog and VERY slow to mature mentally, and it would still squash his drive at this point. However, I have a 7 month old Malinois puppy, that could probably stand to start receiving some minor corrections because he is very confident and will easily tolerate them. It's all about the dog as an individual.
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Postby BullyLady » July 24th, 2008, 4:54 pm

BritneyP wrote:
BullyLady wrote:I'm not sure I quite agree with that. My puppy has an almost alarming amount of energy and she is an extremely confident dog. What this means is that when we are out in public, like at training class, she is so busy saying hello to everyone and sniffing around that she literally CANNOT focus without some compulsion.

I don't like using compulsion on a dog her age, but quite honestly we didn't have any other choice. I think the key is just to not overdo the corrections, especially when introducing new commands or distractions.


Hmm.. maybe I came off wrong because I don't see where we disagree here? :|

I would classify your pup's behavior as a form of "play drive" and especially being a bully-type dog, she's going to have drive in one form or another. I don't use ANY compulsion in my dog's obedience until they are somewhere around a year old, and depending upon the individual dog, sometimes even longer. My GSD Cruiser, is 17 months old and has basically yet to see any form on compulsion because he is a relatively "soft" dog and VERY slow to mature mentally, and it would still squash his drive at this point. However, I have a 7 month old Malinois puppy, that could probably stand to start receiving some minor corrections because he is very confident and will easily tolerate them. It's all about the dog as an individual.


Okay I see what you are saying. I thought you meant that pet dogs should only be taught using positive reinforcement. My dogs are surely pet dogs and we would never get anywhere with just positive reinforcement! I did have to start my pup with corrections really really young and I was a little concerned about it but it hasn't affected her drive and has allowed us to get somewhere with her obedience training.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 5:00 pm

Here's the thing, I have never taught my dogs a "leave it" command, yet Cy, who is incredibly DA will ignore another dog if he's in obedience, he ignores decoys who charge at him then take off. He has learned that "NO" means don't do what you're thinking about and hold whatever position I told you to.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 5:05 pm

BullyLady wrote:
Okay I see what you are saying. I thought you meant that pet dogs should only be taught using positive reinforcement. My dogs are surely pet dogs and we would never get anywhere with just positive reinforcement! I did have to start my pup with corrections really really young and I was a little concerned about it but it hasn't affected her drive and has allowed us to get somewhere with her obedience training.


Britney, I've seen some competition level obedience taught with no compulsion...using a clicker...I was EXTREMELY impressed...MOST dogs need compulsion for it...but NOT ALL. I actually plan on using a clicker to do Nemo's foundation obedience...however, I know it may be tough now that I saw him (and, Michelle, they used a prong to teach him to sit which they needed for the passive alert - they had to b/c he got so locked in drive that he didn't even want his reward - the pipe).

I think it's always good to use different methods in your training. Using all +R is ideological, but not impossible...it really depends on the dog, and what the handler is looking for.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
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Postby BritneyP » July 24th, 2008, 5:43 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
Britney, I've seen some competition level obedience taught with no compulsion...using a clicker...


Bitesport OB? In turn, how strong was the protection work? I'm definately intrigued. The only example I have, is a Sch3 GSD trained entirely by "Purely Positive" methods. However, SchH isn't really my cup of tea and I'd be more impressed if it was a KNPV dog or a Mondio dog. :wink:

katiek0417 wrote:...it really depends on the dog, and what the handler is looking for.


I think THAT is absolutely key.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 24th, 2008, 10:17 pm

BritneyP wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:
Britney, I've seen some competition level obedience taught with no compulsion...using a clicker...


Bitesport OB? In turn, how strong was the protection work? I'm definately intrigued. The only example I have, is a Sch3 GSD trained entirely by "Purely Positive" methods. However, SchH isn't really my cup of tea and I'd be more impressed if it was a KNPV dog or a Mondio dog. :wink:

katiek0417 wrote:...it really depends on the dog, and what the handler is looking for.


I think THAT is absolutely key.


The BEST OB Greg ever saw on a dog was a Rottie in IPO...trained with a clicker....

KNPV dogs are police dogs, so I highly doubt it...KNPV is a police dog certification, and the obedience isn't scored nearly as strictly as it would be in Sch or PSA. However, Tino Schaars has titled more dogs (including Ricardo) to PH1 than any other handler, and this includes: GSDs, mals, Dutchies, rotties, and Bouviers, and he uses a clicker. :|

Also, understand that Sch OB shouldn't be looked down upon - especially at the world levels, where your obedience needs to be flawless and top notch - and especially flashy. I know several of these competitors use a clicker. Have you ever seen these world competitions.

What do you think of Asja's OB? All of her foundation was done with a clicker. When I first met her, she didn't yet wear a prong collar or an e-collar, and her obedience ran circles, even then, around many people I've seen competing in Ring. She learned the call off without any corrections...yet I can promise you, she is considered one of the hardest bitches in PSA EVER.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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