What to do When People Don't Want a Bred Puppy

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby TheRedQueen » February 26th, 2008, 1:24 am

Unfortunately, it doesn't seem limited to Pit bulls...

I have an acquaintance who bred a litter of performance Aussies a few years ago...good lines-herding, ASCA show, flyball, agility, etc. Bred specifically for performance work...and she couldn't find enough good homes.

She offered me a puppy free...which I turned down and then went and adopted my crazy wild one, Inara. ;)

She ended up reducing the prices drastically and basically giving them away in order to find decent homes (they are all in performance homes...but it wasn't easy). She kept those pups for months before placing them all.

:| I don't envy breeders who have to place nice puppies in good homes.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby msvette2u » February 26th, 2008, 1:43 am

Well I'm curious, don't people usually have a wait list before the breedings occur?
This gal is in WA state... http://groups.msn.com/SunstarAmericanBu ... raphy.msnw

My puppies are normally reserved ahead of time,


It seemed that the breeders I know personally have a list of folks wanting their pups before the pups are born. :|
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby TheRedQueen » February 26th, 2008, 1:49 am

On February 26 2008, 12:43 AM, msvette2u wrote:Well I'm curious, don't people usually have a wait list before the breedings occur?
This gal is in WA state... http://groups.msn.com/SunstarAmericanBu ... raphy.msnw

My puppies are normally reserved ahead of time,


It seemed that the breeders I know personally have a list of folks wanting their pups before the pups are born. :|


Most breeders I know have a wait list too...but things don't always work out the way they want. ;) People drop out at the last minute, or there are more puppies that they had thought...etc. I have a friend whose poodle litters go up in size each time...she started with a litter of ten from one bitch, the next breeding it was 12, and the last was 14. :shock: So they had many people lined up, but it wasn't enough...lol.

I'm a rescue person myself, but am friends with at least one breeder. ;)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby katiek0417 » February 26th, 2008, 8:19 am

On February 26 2008, 12:49 AM, TheRedQueen wrote:
On February 26 2008, 12:43 AM, msvette2u wrote:Well I'm curious, don't people usually have a wait list before the breedings occur?
This gal is in WA state... http://groups.msn.com/SunstarAmericanBu ... raphy.msnw

My puppies are normally reserved ahead of time,


It seemed that the breeders I know personally have a list of folks wanting their pups before the pups are born. :|


Most breeders I know have a wait list too...but things don't always work out the way they want. ;) People drop out at the last minute, or there are more puppies that they had thought...etc. I have a friend whose poodle litters go up in size each time...she started with a litter of ten from one bitch, the next breeding it was 12, and the last was 14. :shock: So they had many people lined up, but it wasn't enough...lol.

I'm a rescue person myself, but am friends with at least one breeder. ;)


Hi :greenWave:

I know that when we breed, we take deposits on a small number, then have more people on a waiting list. Then, if the bitch has more puppies than we have deposits, we can let more people put deposits down; if the bitch has less (or, in Asja's case kills them) then we're not refunding a whole ton of money.

I know that with our dogs (i.e., Jue) we don't have a whole lot of people dropping out...but it does happen...

Chris, I'll put the word out about your pups...I know someone who might be interested in the dog for PSA...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby msvette2u » February 26th, 2008, 11:09 am

On February 26 2008, katiek0417 wrote:
I know that with our dogs (i.e., Jue) we don't have a whole lot of people dropping out...but it does happen...



Well with $200 deposit prior to the births, I doubt TOO many would drop out, I guess you never know ;)
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby katiek0417 » February 26th, 2008, 11:12 am

On February 26 2008, 10:09 AM, msvette2u wrote:
On February 26 2008, katiek0417 wrote:
I know that with our dogs (i.e., Jue) we don't have a whole lot of people dropping out...but it does happen...



Well with $200 deposit prior to the births, I doubt TOO many would drop out, I guess you never know ;)


We don't do $200 deposits...we don't want to have to give back that much if something happens!!!!

People typically don't drop out on the Jue puppies...and we don't refund for someone dropping out (unless it's like they became homeless or something)....but if something happens to the puppies (even with x-rays, etc, you can't be sure how many will live to "maturity")
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby msvette2u » February 26th, 2008, 11:15 am

I take non refundable deposits on our adoptables :|
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby katiek0417 » February 26th, 2008, 11:19 am

On February 26 2008, 10:15 AM, msvette2u wrote:I take non refundable deposits on our adoptables :|


I think that's smart....

We do non-refundable if it's of the buyer's choice to back out...but if something happens (like when Asja killed the pups) we refund the money...because in our mind, the people still would've taken the pup if it weren't for our circumstances...does that make sense?

I also had the situation with Sacha's puppies that I had a deposit on one to go to a pet home, and I deemed him to "crazy" for a pet home, so I offered the person another pup or their deposit back...and they want a puppy out of her next litter...so it worked out...

But sometimes you do end up with a good litter (from good parents) and pups left over - like is the situation with Chris...and it looks like he is trying to find them good working homes, and not just putting them in a house to get rid of them...I respect that...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby mnp13 » February 26th, 2008, 5:19 pm

The other side of this discussion is this - you can be a good breeder, you can take deposits, you can make those deposits non-refundable, a potential buyer may have to back out for a "good" reason that you don't think is a "good" reason and you keep their money and they don't get a puppy... The dog world is a very small place, especially for high level compitition dogs, especially with the internet. Once someone is unhappy with a breeder it will get spread very very fast. Being inflexible as a rescuer is not quite the same as being inflexible as a breeder.

The other problem with breeding high end compitition dogs is that you can't guarentee that all of the dogs will be the calibur needed for your waiting list.

I'm not speaking for Chris (we haven't spoken in a very long time) but I'd be willing to guess that there were homes lined up ahead of time that didn't pan out when it was time for the puppies to go home.

I'll be frank here, I wouldn't believe what he said about the money if I didn't have Riggs. The weekend I got him (two years ago tomorrow actually) Chris had more than one offer to buy Riggs - I was standing there for one of them. The people making the offers were not the people who were going to work the dog... he could have taken a grand or two for Riggs, instead he send him home with me - for free. It's not always about the money and it's not always about someone being irresponsible. Sometimes it's just about "shit happens."
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby SisMorphine » February 26th, 2008, 6:23 pm

A good breeder matches a puppy's temperament with the future owner. So though there may be 10 people on the wait list and 10 dogs, some of those people will most likely be told that there isn't a dog in this litter that meets what the breeder deems to be an ideal match up. It definitely happens, especially with litters of dogs bred specifically to work.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR

Postby msvette2u » February 27th, 2008, 11:08 am

I guess then, it would behoove professional trainers, to seek out already born "drivey" dogs from shelters, rather than rely on a litter who is to be born :|
At least they can then see what characteristics the dogs already have, than hoping an unborn litter has the traits they are looking for.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby pitbullmamaliz » February 27th, 2008, 11:25 am

Although I would think (and I may be wrong) that most high-drive dogs would not do well in a shelter setting and would be deemed "unadoptable" and euthed. I'm sure the occasionaly drivey dog makes it through, but most are not appropriate for the "typical" dog owner.
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby TheRedQueen » February 27th, 2008, 11:33 am

On February 27 2008, 10:08 AM, msvette2u wrote:I guess then, it would behoove professional trainers, to seek out already born "drivey" dogs from shelters, rather than rely on a litter who is to be born :|
At least they can then see what characteristics the dogs already have, than hoping an unborn litter has the traits they are looking for.


That's what I've done...all of mine are rescues, and all were picked to play flyball and other stuff. I've also picked a breed that has good drive and energy for a reason. ;) But it's a crap shoot, just like picking a puppy...if you don't know what to look for. The good thing for some people is to find a good breeder who can tell them the things to look for in a puppy. Many people don't know what to look for in a rescue or adult dog. (when looking for performance work). I had a recent foster (Aussie) that came to me overweight, bad structure (for performance-straight back legs, etc), not much drive for anything, low-medium energy...and her first foster mom was just gushing about how she'd make such a great performance dog! Uh...yeah, sure. (She went to a lovely pet home...where she plays with her equally overweight new brother)

Although I would think (and I may be wrong) that most high-drive dogs would not do well in a shelter setting and would be deemed "unadoptable" and euthed. I'm sure the occasionaly drivey dog makes it through, but most are not appropriate for the "typical" dog owner.


I think it partly depends on whether it's a purebred dog or not...my breed of choice, Aussies, has a lot of high-drive/energy dogs. That's the nature of the breed. The rescue is always full, and tries to pull dogs before they sit too long in a shelter situation...especially since the working-line dogs are going to be more reserved by nature also...which makes it hard for them to live in a shelter also. I'm sure there are lots of high-drive mixes that get euth'd because no one takes them in. :( But I think with purebreds, there is sometimes a better support system to take care of these types.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby katiek0417 » February 27th, 2008, 12:26 pm

I, or someone who knows how to test dogs, has tested several labs in rescue over the past several months to be brought out and trained for detection work. Not one of those labs passed the test.

At least with bitework, it's often hard to take an older dog and start training it. Drive DOES NOT always equal good work. For example, if an older dog was constantly reprimanded for nipping when it was a puppy, it's going to be a lot harder to transfer from a tug to a bite sleeve (with arm in it).

Like Aussies, mals are very high drive dogs. But you do get ones that aren't high drive, and they won't work. And, unfortunately, with mals, if they end up in a shelter, it's sometimes because they were given up because they don't work. In fact, it says right on the Belgian Malinois rescue site that some of those dogs were given up because they didn't work:

http://www.malinoisrescue.org/
Many police officers/trainers/SAR groups approach Malinois rescue looking for young dogs to train. Most of our rescued dogs are not suitable for these types of jobs. Some of our rescued Malinois are actually dogs that have been rejected by police departments due to their inability to do the job.


Personally, I try to be very responsible when I breed. What I mean by this is that AT ANY TIME I am willing to take back a puppy/dog out of one of my breedings. To confirm that people aren't giving up their dogs to shelters, etc I stay in touch with the people that get my pups. I ask for pictures...

'Vette, finding a dog in a shelter for "work" isn't that easy - especially with what I do. Many times there's a reason that the dogs are there...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby TheRedQueen » February 27th, 2008, 12:35 pm

At least with bitework, it's often hard to take an older dog and start training it. Drive DOES NOT always equal good work. For example, if an older dog was constantly reprimanded for nipping when it was a puppy, it's going to be a lot harder to transfer from a tug to a bite sleeve (with arm in it).


A very good point indeed! (sheesh Katrina...we seem to be getting good at patting each other on the back lately...lol)

One of the reasons our group likes to raise our own puppies as Assistance Dogs, whether rescue or breeder donations...is that they don't have bad habits. By bad habits...we are mainly talking about being corrected for picking stuff up. With puppies, most people correct them for picking up random objects or carrying things around. Well, with AD pups we encourage them to put various objects in their mouths...because that's what they're going to do eventually...pick up everything and anything. We have a harder time with older dogs that have been told not to do that...because it's very common. Or dogs that have been taught not to tug...well, ADs are going to have to tug things, and retrieve things...etc. It's easier to start with a blank slate. (not that it can't be done...it's just harder)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby mnp13 » February 27th, 2008, 1:14 pm

Although I would think (and I may be wrong) that most high-drive dogs would not do well in a shelter setting and would be deemed "unadoptable" and euthed. I'm sure the occasionaly drivey dog makes it through, but most are not appropriate for the "typical" dog owner.

We had this discussion at some point, though I'm not entirely sure it was here. I think there are many high drive, working calibur dogs in shelters. I also think that those are the first ones to be put down. When a dog is born to work and then it ends up in a 6x8 foot wire cage with nothing to do for days on end, they tend to get a little nuts.

Think of it this way - how would Inara be if you ignored her completely for 3 days? Isolate her in a run where she has to amuse herself with one toy and have dogs all over the place barking. I've only met her the one time, but I would be willing to guess that she would be a nut case before the third day is over. When a potential adopter goes through the shelter and meets her she'd be completely out of control.

Could an experienced person evaluate a dog that is going shelter crazy and see the potential for working ability under all that nuttiness? Maybe, maybe not.

Many people don't know what to look for in a rescue or adult dog. (when looking for performance work). I had a recent foster (Aussie) that came to me overweight, bad structure (for performance-straight back legs, etc), not much drive for anything, low-medium energy...and her first foster mom was just gushing about how she'd make such a great performance dog!

Exactly - and that is why many "performance people" give up on rescue. They hear all about how fantastic the dog is, how they are the perfect dog for whatever job, then the evaluator takes the time to go meet the dog to find out that they completely wasted their time. I did that once, and it was an hour drive to get to where the dog was.

I guess then, it would behoove professional trainers, to seek out already born "drivey" dogs from shelters, rather than rely on a litter who is to be born
At least they can then see what characteristics the dogs already have, than hoping an unborn litter has the traits they are looking for.

Maybe in an ideal world. I absolutely believe that there are tons of high calibur working dogs in shelters. I also absolutely believe that those dogs are the first dogs to be put down. I also absolutely believe that if those dogs end up in a rescue that they will probably be in that rescue for a while because though there are plenty of people looking for high drive dogs there are far more who don't want them.

Connor is a great example of a dog that ended up in a shelter who is working calibur. So is Doc. Riggs was dumped back on his breeder because his owner got tired of dealing with him. I don't know what the circumstances of Elmo ending up back with his breeder, but he is a national level agility competitor. Erin's dogs are good examples as well. they are out there, but they are the minority, and the people who eant them are a much smaller minority.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby katiek0417 » February 27th, 2008, 3:31 pm

On February 27 2008, 11:35 AM, TheRedQueen wrote:
At least with bitework, it's often hard to take an older dog and start training it. Drive DOES NOT always equal good work. For example, if an older dog was constantly reprimanded for nipping when it was a puppy, it's going to be a lot harder to transfer from a tug to a bite sleeve (with arm in it).


A very good point indeed! (sheesh Katrina...we seem to be getting good at patting each other on the back lately...lol)

One of the reasons our group likes to raise our own puppies as Assistance Dogs, whether rescue or breeder donations...is that they don't have bad habits. By bad habits...we are mainly talking about being corrected for picking stuff up. With puppies, most people correct them for picking up random objects or carrying things around. Well, with AD pups we encourage them to put various objects in their mouths...because that's what they're going to do eventually...pick up everything and anything. We have a harder time with older dogs that have been told not to do that...because it's very common. Or dogs that have been taught not to tug...well, ADs are going to have to tug things, and retrieve things...etc. It's easier to start with a blank slate. (not that it can't be done...it's just harder)


Is that a bad thing? :| It's actually funny that you bring up retrieving because you're right. Teaching any dog anything later in life is a lot harder than teaching it early on. Nisha will retrieve (not the perfect bring it back and sit in front of me, yet) ANYTHING from shoes to keys, to bullets, to copper pipes. As a puppy I always let her pick things up (that doesn't mean I let her chew on them, just let her pick them up). Now, she'll put anything in her mouth.

But older dogs...well, trying to get them to retrieve odd items (or odd tasting items like copper) is tough, and to get the perfect retrieve (with the go out, pick up item from the middle, then bring it back and sit in front of you) you sometimes have to force fetch them. I'm not opposed to doing a forced fetch...but if you can start off early, why not?

As Michelle points out, many of the high drive dogs that can work are the first to be put down. I have tried to forge relationships between myself and some rescues/shelters in the area so that if they come across a high drive lab, they call me, I come to test it for detection....unfortunately, dogs aren't always what they seem, and unless you're familiar with what you're looking for, then it's hard to find. I've had to go back 2 or 3 times to test a dog to see if it's really drive or just excitement with having human interaction...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby TheRedQueen » February 27th, 2008, 3:58 pm

Is that a bad thing? Neutral It's actually funny that you bring up retrieving because you're right. Teaching any dog anything later in life is a lot harder than teaching it early on. Nisha will retrieve (not the perfect bring it back and sit in front of me, yet) ANYTHING from shoes to keys, to bullets, to copper pipes. As a puppy I always let her pick things up (that doesn't mean I let her chew on them, just let her pick them up). Now, she'll put anything in her mouth.

But older dogs...well, trying to get them to retrieve odd items (or odd tasting items like copper) is tough, and to get the perfect retrieve (with the go out, pick up item from the middle, then bring it back and sit in front of you) you sometimes have to force fetch them. I'm not opposed to doing a forced fetch...but if you can start off early, why not?


It's probably one of the hardest things for puppy raisers to grasp...our first instinct is to grab it away, or to make sure they don't get into stuff.

But Score has been picking stuff up all his life...I was puppy raising him for Fidos first...so not only did he not get corrected for it...but I made sure he had lots of things to put in his mouth. :) He has no issue picking up noisy objects (keys, water bottles, etc) or metal objects (tin cans, pop cans, etc) or small stuff (rubber bands, bobby pins, etc). But this is hard for our everyday puppy raiser to get their mind around. ;) He was 3 months old dragging blankets around the house, between his legs, like a lion dragging its kill.

My older dogs got taught a retrieve later...and they will be more hesitant, always. They do a damn good job at picking stuff up...but they're just not as savvy at it.

Maybe in an ideal world. I absolutely believe that there are tons of high calibur working dogs in shelters. I also absolutely believe that those dogs are the first dogs to be put down. I also absolutely believe that if those dogs end up in a rescue that they will probably be in that rescue for a while because though there are plenty of people looking for high drive dogs there are far more who don't want them.


Yep...my Inara was basically on death row in the rescue...because she just couldn't settle in even when she was in foster care...not just a shelter situation. High-drive breeds are always difficult to rescue and care for...because it's hard to find fosters that are willing to take them in.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby msvette2u » February 27th, 2008, 6:44 pm

In my own experience, we've sent dogs to drug detection work, they write to shelters and ask them to assess each dog - the more knowledgeable shelters become, the more dogs may get sent to drug school.
I don't know about bite work, and shelter dogs but I know many who have passed the drug training (Neville, anyone??)
I also do not know if the world is ready for pit bulls doing bite work. Typically, police want sheps and mals for that.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby katiek0417 » February 27th, 2008, 6:48 pm

On February 27 2008, 5:44 PM, msvette2u wrote:In my own experience, we've sent dogs to drug detection work, they write to shelters and ask them to assess each dog - the more knowledgeable shelters become, the more dogs may get sent to drug school.
I don't know about bite work, and shelter dogs but I know many who have passed the drug training (Neville, anyone??)
I also do not know if the world is ready for pit bulls doing bite work. Typically, police want sheps and mals for that.


I know of a rescued pit bull that does PP/sport work. I should've been more specific, but I consider that to be work...

Maybe you are just lucky where you are, but I can tell you that I have searched shelters around here for drivey enough dogs for detection....and I haven't been able to find them...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Next

Return to Pit Bull Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron