Developmentally; how is pyo and removal of sexual organs

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Postby turtle » February 10th, 2006, 11:49 am

Wow, those are some good links, Yvette! Thanks for posting them.

From this one:

http://www.caninecancerawareness.org/Ca ... mmary.html

Interesting bit at the bottom of the page: (I skimmed it as I have go to work!)


"The dogs were classified into 3 groups according to spay status and spay time:

intact dogs,

dogs spayed less than 2 years before tumor surgery (SPAY 1),

and dogs spayed more than 2 years before their tumor surgery (SPAY 2).

Dogs in the SPAY 1 group lived significantly longer than dogs in SPAY 2 and intact dogs (median survival of 755 days, versus 301 and 286 days, respectively, P = .02 and .03).

After adjusting for differences between the spay groups with regard to age, histologic differentiation, and vascular invasion, SPAY 1 dogs survived 45% longer compared to dogs that were either intact or in the SPAY 2 group (RR = .55; 95% CI .32-.93; P = .03). "



It looks to me like that study found that intact dogs and dogs spayed earlier did not live as long as dogs spayed later??? Humm.... Am I reading it wrong? Darn it, I have to go but I'll be back and read some more. Good topic!
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Postby pLaurent » February 10th, 2006, 11:59 am

Is it worse to spay and get bone cancer than to not spay and get breast cancer?


It's impossible to answer that without knowing how many dogs get bone cancer specifically from being spayed in comparison to how many dogs get mammary cancer from being left intact.

And I don't know the figures either, but I would guess more intact bitches die from pyo then intact bitches die from bone cancer....?

And how detrimental is it for a bitch to go through two fruitless heats every year and what kind of toll does that take physically and mentally?

NO PUPPYMILLS CANADA says this:

Spayed females are not susceptible to life-threatening uterine infections and reproductive tract cancers that can occur in breeding females, as well as mastitis, ovarian cysts, miscarriages and delivery complications. All these can be expensive to treat, and dangerous to your animal's health. Almost half of unspayed female dogs will develop breast cancer, while spaying before first heat reduces the incidence to almost zero. Even later spaying greatly reduces the risk.
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Postby mnp13 » February 10th, 2006, 12:39 pm

You also have a signifigantly higher risk of spay incontenance if you have to do a pyometra spay. Pyo spays are considerably more expensive (Ruby's was $800) and have a much higher death rate.
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Postby Miakoda » February 10th, 2006, 2:02 pm

mnp13 wrote:You also have a signifigantly higher risk of spay incontenance if you have to do a pyometra spay. Pyo spays are considerably more expensive (Ruby's was $800) and have a much higher death rate.


You're so right. We've done several pyo spays infortunately, & for one of our clients we videoed the spay then took the uterus to the tub & cut it open so she could fully understand what it entails. I think the sight of the enormous about of nasty, green puss (some chunky stuff too) flowing out of the uterus into the drain pretty much got her puking & got her acting her spaying all her females (this was the 2nd female she's had to develop pyo).

There's such a high risk b/c 1) if the uterus hasn't already ruptured, there's a great chance that it will & 2) the uterus might've already ruptured or formed a leak thereby leaking deadly infectious material throughout the body.

Maybe I can contact her to get a copy of the video (it's on a dvd) & upload it into the computer. Hmmmm.........
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Postby Kangas Mommy » February 10th, 2006, 6:13 pm

Yeah Pyometras are just bad. Once you see a couple you want all your animals spayed! LOL sometimes i think i should get spayed! I dont want that to happen to me! YUCK. Spaying at 6 months seems appropriate to me....
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Postby msvette2u » February 10th, 2006, 10:52 pm

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Postby pibblegrl » February 11th, 2006, 12:50 pm

:popcorn:
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Postby mnp13 » February 11th, 2006, 2:01 pm

Miakoda wrote:Maybe I can contact her to get a copy of the video


that would be a great idea, it was the first thing I though when you said you made a video.

Ruby's uteris was black inside when they cut it open. It was already rotting....

Will every unspayed, unpred dog develop pyo? No, of course not. But the risk is there, and since it is 100% preventable why not spay, especially if you are not going to breed.
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Postby pLaurent » February 11th, 2006, 3:30 pm

It's too bad the people who need to see that won't.

There's someone on these boards who has a 3 or 4 year old pit bull bitch - intact - because he wants her to "grow". (Into what I don't know!)

I was chatting with him and asked him if he didn't worry about pyometra. "What's that?" he asked.

When I explained, he just said he was sure HIS dog would never get it.:rolleyes2:
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Postby Pitcrew » February 11th, 2006, 11:00 pm

Emi wrote:If we want to go back to the nature of things...

By nature dogs are pack animals ... and in a pack only 2 dogs breed the alpha male and alpha female , and the others don't mate and produce off spring .


Dont forget that by nature wild canids also only have only 1 heat cycle per year.

Spay/neuter alone is not the only factor that should be considered when analyzing cancer risk. We have genetically changed many things about our companions who can hardly be considered "narural" any longer. Has anyone done breed, age, or diet comparisons on these cancer studies? Although these studies are presenting facts, they are a select portion of the facts, and I dont thin that in most of the cases, whether or not the animals were inact were the only contributing factors to their cancers... any more than I believe that dog bite statistics are acurate... you have to look at the big picture.

Going thru twice as many heat cycles as natural is not healthy either. Breast cancer in women who dont have children is much higher due to having more hormone cycles (not missing them durring pregnancy and breast feeding). But I DO NOT plan on having kids to reduce my risk.

Having assisted in pyo surgeries, I DO spay. Also, studies aside, ALL prostate problems I have seen in the practices I worked for were intact dogs.

I also successfully compete in many sports and my dogs have all been altered. I dont feel being intact improves working ability. But I do like to see breeding dogs being worked and titled.
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Postby SisMorphine » February 11th, 2006, 11:22 pm

Lisa wrote:
Emi wrote:If we want to go back to the nature of things...

By nature dogs are pack animals ... and in a pack only 2 dogs breed the alpha male and alpha female , and the others don't mate and produce off spring .


Dont forget that by nature wild canids also only have only 1 heat cycle per year.

Spay/neuter alone is not the only factor that should be considered when analyzing cancer risk. We have genetically changed many things about our companions who can hardly be considered "narural" any longer. Has anyone done breed, age, or diet comparisons on these cancer studies? Although these studies are presenting facts, they are a select portion of the facts, and I dont thin that in most of the cases, whether or not the animals were inact were the only contributing factors to their cancers... any more than I believe that dog bite statistics are acurate... you have to look at the big picture.

Going thru twice as many heat cycles as natural is not healthy either. Breast cancer in women who dont have children is much higher due to having more hormone cycles (not missing them durring pregnancy and breast feeding). But I DO NOT plan on having kids to reduce my risk.

Having assisted in pyo surgeries, I DO spay. Also, studies aside, ALL prostate problems I have seen in the practices I worked for were intact dogs.

I also successfully compete in many sports and my dogs have all been altered. I dont feel being intact improves working ability. But I do like to see breeding dogs being worked and titled.
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Postby turtle » February 12th, 2006, 8:59 pm

I was on another forum and found another article pertaining to this discussion so I will post it below. I have asked for links to the studies mentioned so I hope he will post them.

Not many people know about the long term effects of early spay/neutering. Most owners have no idea that altered dogs will grow more if they are done too early. And that info about hip dysplasia and cruciate ligaments is very interesting, I'd not heard that before.

Here's the article:

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There are a number of studies that suggest that those of us with canine athletes should be carefully considering our current recommendations to spay or neuter all dogs at 6 months of age or earlier.

A study by Salmeri et al in 1991 (Salmeri et al JAVMA 1991;198:1193-1203) found that bitches spayed at 7 weeks were significantly taller than those spayed at 7 months, and that those spayed at at 7 months had significantly delayed closure of the growth plates than those not spayed (or presumably spayed after the growth plates had closed).

The sex hormones close the growth plates, so the bones of dogs or bitches neutered or spayed before puberty continue to grow. This growth frequently results in a dog that does not have the same body proportions as he/she was genetically meant to.

For example, if the femur is normal length at 8 months when a dog gets spayed or neutered, but the tibia, which normally stops growing at 12 to 14 months of age continues to grow, then an abnormal angle may develop at the stifle. In addition, with the extra growth, the lower leg below the stifle becomes heavier (because it is longer), causing increased stresses on the cranial cruciate ligament.

This is confirmed by a recent study showing that spayed and neutered dogs have a higher incidence of CCL rupture (Slauterbeck JR, Pankratz K, Xu KT, Bozeman SC, Hardy DM. Canine ovariohysterectomy and orchiectomy increases the prevalence of ACL injury. Clin Orthop Relat Res. 2004 Dec;(429):301-5).

In addition, a study in 2004 in JAVMA (Spain et al. JAVMA 2004;224:380-387) showed that dogs spayed or neutered before 5 1/2 months had a significantly higher incidence of hip dysplasia than dogs spayed or neutered after 5 1/2 months of age.

If I were a breeder, I would be very concerned about this, because it would mean that I might be making incorrect breeding decisions if I were considering the hip status of pups I sold that were spayed or neutered early. Interestingly, this same author also identified an increased incidence of sexual behaviors in males and females that were neutered early.

A number of studies, including the one by Spain referenced above, have shown that there is an increase in the incidence of female urinary incontinence in dogs spayed early. This problem is an inconvenience, and not usually life-threatening, but nonetheless one that requires the dog to be medicated for life.

Yes, there is the concern that there is an increased risk of mammary cancer if a dog has a heat cycle. But it is my observation that fewer canine athletes develop mammary cancer as compared to the number that damage their cranial cruciate ligaments.

In addition, only about 50 % of mammary cancers are malignant, and those that are malignant don't metastasize very often, particularly in these days when there is early identification and removal of lumps found on our dogs.

In addition, when considering cancer, there is another study of 3218 dogs that showed that dogs that were neutered before a year of age had a significantly increased chance of developing bone cancer (Cooley DM, Beranek BC, Schlittler DL, Glickman NW, Glickman LT, Waters D, Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2002 Nov;11(11):1434-40), a cancer that is much more life-threatening than mammary cancer, and which affects both genders.

Finally, in another study, unneutered males were significantly less likely than neutered males to suffer cognitive impairment when they were older (Hart BL. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2001 Jul 1;219(1):51-6). Females were not evaluated in that study.

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Postby pLaurent » February 12th, 2006, 11:49 pm

For my own pets, I would never s/n before 6 months, because I know I"m responsible.

But for anyone adopting out puppies or kittens, early s/n is the ONLY way to guarantee that animal will never be bred. Even people with the best intentions have "ooopsies".
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Postby Sarah » February 13th, 2006, 12:03 am

pitbullpony wrote:I certainly see the benefit to spay and not having to worry about pyometra. However please don't discount the potential health ramifications of neuter or spay on your animals. I find it interesting that pyometra is so often occuring - horses and cows due to cost are very rarely spayed and they are mucky about their backend - they very rarely suffer any problems until much later in life.


The reason that dogs are so prone to pyometra has to do with the peculiarities of the canine reproductive system. Dogs are a little different.

Every time a dog comes into heat, her body goes through all the hormonal changes of pregnancy. Some dogs have obvious false pregnancies, some don't, but in all of them, their bodies "think" that they are pregnant. This is part of the reason that being intact is so stressful on a dog, effectively, she goes through 2 pregnancies a year, for life. (and yes, wild canids would only go into heat once a year, halving the stress on their bodies. Some domestic dogs even go into heat every 4 months- 3 times a year, never giving their bodies time to recover)

Because the bitch's system believes that she is pregnant, her immune system will not touch anything that happens to be in the uterus. It could be puppies. So, any bacteria that find their way into the uterus at that time can proliferate freely.

Most pyometras occur shortly after a heat cycle.
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Postby msvette2u » February 13th, 2006, 12:38 am

Thanks for the explanation. That makes alot of sense!
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Postby valliesong » February 13th, 2006, 11:43 pm

oh crud, i posted on the other topic...
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