Some new protection training videos.

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 19th, 2006, 11:40 pm

I finally managed to get some videos of the boys at training. The quality isn't very good, and my husband needs some training as a camera man. But oh well, here they are.

Eros training on a hold and bark with a call-off and a resend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E13CQRmgQFw

Eros training for a carjacking with bite suit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbcpiU7ciGI

Eros training for a carjacking with bite sleeve.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkvap9yzbtE

Eros deploying from the vehicle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbWyU_nyJDY

Jaeger (24wks old) learning bitework.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ns21fA2oM
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 19th, 2006, 11:49 pm

Here is the correct link:
Jaeger (24wks old) learning bitework.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57ns21fA2oM
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Big_Ant » November 20th, 2006, 12:37 pm

What sport are you training for? Sch, FR?

Or is this just a personal type of PP Training?

I have to say, that I was far from impressed with the videos. The dog didn't seem to be in control in the bark/hold video at all. He was far too jumpy and jittery.

And I know that this is not a requirement, but I have always done my training where the actual bite is the end result, and a treat, not something that's just thrown around.

In most of the clubs I've worked with we require that the dog be in absolute control before they are allowed to take a bite, and that usually requires quite a bit of training.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't know you, and I have no clue on your story with your dogs.

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby cheekymunkee » November 20th, 2006, 1:13 pm

Thanks for sharing!
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 20th, 2006, 5:16 pm

On November 20 2006, 11:37 AM, Big_Ant wrote:What sport are you training for? Sch, FR?

Or is this just a personal type of PP Training?

I have to say, that I was far from impressed with the videos. The dog didn't seem to be in control in the bark/hold video at all. He was far too jumpy and jittery.

And I know that this is not a requirement, but I have always done my training where the actual bite is the end result, and a treat, not something that's just thrown around.

In most of the clubs I've worked with we require that the dog be in absolute control before they are allowed to take a bite, and that usually requires quite a bit of training.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't know you, and I have no clue on your story with your dogs.

- Anthony


Eros is simply for personal protection as he goes a lot of places with me, and is my running partner at night.

My friend wants me to compete Jaeger in PSA and/or French Ring.
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 20th, 2006, 5:21 pm

On November 20 2006, 11:37 AM, Big_Ant wrote:What sport are you training for? Sch, FR?

Or is this just a personal type of PP Training?

I have to say, that I was far from impressed with the videos. The dog didn't seem to be in control in the bark/hold video at all. He was far too jumpy and jittery.

And I know that this is not a requirement, but I have always done my training where the actual bite is the end result, and a treat, not something that's just thrown around.

In most of the clubs I've worked with we require that the dog be in absolute control before they are allowed to take a bite, and that usually requires quite a bit of training.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but I don't know you, and I have no clue on your story with your dogs.

- Anthony


Eros is simply for personal protection, as he goes out with me all the time and is my running partner at night.

My friend wants me to compete Jaeger in PSA and/or French Ring.

Please, tell me what you found wrong with the videos. I am trying to get advice. The trainer we are using has about 25yrs of experience, but I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions about the videos of him training my dogs. So please, share. I am trying to learn.
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Big_Ant » November 20th, 2006, 5:32 pm

I'd say first thing is that the dog should not be at the point that he's allowed to take any bites, period.

In terms of the dog itself, it needs to be in much more control than was displayed. All of that hopping around, turning it's head towards you, etc., are things that you need to work on.

A TRUE Bark/Hold consists of the dog in a guard stand (or sit, trainer preference) and the dog must be focused and still in it's intent. There can be no hopping. While I've seen some dogs that are extremely drivey and they just can't control some muscle jerks, the jumping around displayed in the video is too much.

The turning of the head towards you I think is, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong someone), a major point deduction (if not disqualification) in a true PP trial. Judging by the behavior and actions in the video (and I could be wrong since it is just video) the turning of the head is a lack of confidence on the dogs part, and shows that he's not sure of how he should react or act to the posed situation.

I would say that you need to take 10 steps back and start from the ground up with basic concepts. To me it seems like maybe this Trainer rushed things too much and the dog doesn't have the confidence and possibly knowledge to know how to handle the situations, and he doesn't have the proper obedience training to perform to standard.

The key thing to remember that most bite sport (specifically Sch.) is really only a small part bite, the majority of it is obedience, control, situational reaction, etc.

As I said, get all of the basics down with the dog before he's allowed to take a bite.

The bite should be a reward, not an every day thing. It is not uncommon that a Sch. Trained dog will only get a bite once in every 5 days of Training. It keeps the dog much more focused and not thinking that the bite is something that is easily achieved. They must work to earn that reward.

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby Big_Ant » November 20th, 2006, 5:34 pm

I would also add that you should probably drop the carjacking situation until you get further along in his ability. Those situations are very advanced, and I get the impression that you just started with this, so that's definitely not enough time to get to that point.

Work on standard situations, Bark/Hold, Handler Protection, etc. -
(* AFTER YOU GET THE OBEDIENCE PART DOWN!)

- Anthony
User avatar
Big_Ant
Enlightened Bully
 
Posts: 1743

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 20th, 2006, 7:22 pm

On November 20 2006, 4:32 PM, Big_Ant wrote:I'd say first thing is that the dog should not be at the point that he's allowed to take any bites, period.

In terms of the dog itself, it needs to be in much more control than was displayed. All of that hopping around, turning it's head towards you, etc., are things that you need to work on.

A TRUE Bark/Hold consists of the dog in a guard stand (or sit, trainer preference) and the dog must be focused and still in it's intent. There can be no hopping. While I've seen some dogs that are extremely drivey and they just can't control some muscle jerks, the jumping around displayed in the video is too much.

The turning of the head towards you I think is, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong someone), a major point deduction (if not disqualification) in a true PP trial. Judging by the behavior and actions in the video (and I could be wrong since it is just video) the turning of the head is a lack of confidence on the dogs part, and shows that he's not sure of how he should react or act to the posed situation.

I would say that you need to take 10 steps back and start from the ground up with basic concepts. To me it seems like maybe this Trainer rushed things too much and the dog doesn't have the confidence and possibly knowledge to know how to handle the situations, and he doesn't have the proper obedience training to perform to standard.

The key thing to remember that most bite sport (specifically Sch.) is really only a small part bite, the majority of it is obedience, control, situational reaction, etc.

As I said, get all of the basics down with the dog before he's allowed to take a bite.

The bite should be a reward, not an every day thing. It is not uncommon that a Sch. Trained dog will only get a bite once in every 5 days of Training. It keeps the dog much more focused and not thinking that the bite is something that is easily achieved. They must work to earn that reward.

- Anthony



In PSA the dog isn't allowed to touch the decoy during a hold and bark. I don't remember anything about not being allowed to jump. Also, I have watched the video about 20 times (besides the fact that I was there), and I can't find a spot where he even looked back at me. Other than: the first time he turned around and went off screen, was when I called him off; the second time was when I gave him a leash and verbal correction for mouthing the sleeve.
Maybe you are seeing something that I can't. Somebody else commented about it too, but I don't see it.

This was also Eros' first "carjacking" training.

Thanks for the info.
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby mnp13 » November 20th, 2006, 7:59 pm

In PSA the dog can hold and bark in any position, they can also be anywhere during the escort, as long as they are watching the decoy.

I'm very curious about your trainer. You have only been doing bitework for under 6 months and inconsistantly, but you are doing call offs, working multiple dogs and doing the car jacking senario?

When did you do the foundation work?

Most of the bites look very shallow as well.

The training for PSA is VERY different than the training for French Ring. I'd suggest you pick one or the other.

25 years of experience doesn't mean anything, what credentials does he have and what titles has he put on dogs? What about decoy certifications?
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Nelson » November 20th, 2006, 10:43 pm

My friend wants me to compete Jaeger in PSA and/or French Ring.

Please, tell me what you found wrong with the videos. I am trying to get advice. The trainer we are using has about 25yrs of experience, but I have gotten a lot of mixed opinions about the videos of him training my dogs. So please, share. I am trying to learn.


Although I have never seen a PSA event I can give my personal opinion on the French Ring part and PP training. French Ring because I won the 2000 CRA Ring 3 Championship and PP because that's how I earned a living for decades.

First of all I would like to start that 25 years of experience counts for nothing if the experience is a bad one! Let yourself be guided by accomplishments rather than by years in the business. I got many "experienced" very upset when they couldn't understand how a person like me with less experience than them could beat them so convincingly in trials and championships.

How many titles has your trainer earned? How many dogs where actually raised and trained by him? How many client dogs has he been able to title? How many championships (if any) has he been able to conquer? It takes a normal person 10 years to get to the highest level of proficiency in his area. With 25 years in it, he should have some provable, official titles to back up his expertise. By official I mean AKC, UKC Obedience, PSA, FR, Sch., or Mondio titles. No backyard stuff.

That being said the videos fall very short in professionalism. The dog shows lots of conflict. The handling and decoy work is only accentuating the problems. Without testing the dog in person it's hard to say if the problem is a combination of the dog AND the training or just the training.

The good part is that you have your options open. You're looking for opinions and answers and that's a really good thing that asses to your maturity. Try to find other training clubs that you can go to and different working trials. Compare what you see with what you want. Go on from there. The things you see that you like (good dog/handler performances) go to them and ask questions.

Everytime I competed in Obedience with my APBT and in FR with my Malinois we always had the same reaction from the fans. They always loved to see the dogs working happily and stress free. Good luck in your endeavor, if I can be of any help, just let me know.
User avatar
Nelson
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 50
Location: Central Florida

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 20th, 2006, 11:10 pm

Thanks Nelson. Where in central, florida are you? We are in St. Petersburg. Do you train with a group?
I am leaning toward training Jaeger for PSA instead of French Ring, but I still am not sure. I have heard about Gators (out of plant city), and was thinking about checking them out. They are supposed to be getting a training facility closer to us (maybe Tampa).
Has anyone heard anything (good or bad) about this group?
http://www.geocities.com/gatork9club
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 20th, 2006, 11:17 pm

On November 20 2006, 6:59 PM, mnp13 wrote:In PSA the dog can hold and bark in any position, they can also be anywhere during the escort, as long as they are watching the decoy.

I'm very curious about your trainer. You have only been doing bitework for under 6 months and inconsistantly, but you are doing call offs, working multiple dogs and doing the car jacking senario?

When did you do the foundation work?


Jim (the decoy/trainer) started Eros w/o me. A lot of times he takes in a dog and starts their training, and then incorporates the owner later.
Is this wrong?

I know I don't like doing it that way for my obedience clients, but I was assured that it is fine for protection training.
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Nelson » November 20th, 2006, 11:48 pm

Carla,

I'm in the Kissimme area. Although I had a club from 1984-2000, since my last competition dog died I have limited myself to doing seminars and private lessons.

Word of advice. Which ever the venue you choose to trial at, use the same criteria as when chosing a good trainer. Go to the trial results of the sport in question (PSA, Ring, etc) and find out for yourself what has that club accomplished before diving in.

Anyone can hold a leash, trial a dog and say they're a trainer. Very few can actually raise and train a dog from puppyhood to high level competition. This does NOT include the lower levels like Ring 1 or 2, same for PSA. Hope this helps.

Happy training
User avatar
Nelson
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 50
Location: Central Florida

Postby mnp13 » November 21st, 2006, 1:43 am

On November 20 2006, 22:17, Ultimatek9 wrote:Jim (the decoy/trainer) started Eros w/o me. A lot of times he takes in a dog and starts their training, and then incorporates the owner later.
Is this wrong?

I know I don't like doing it that way for my obedience clients, but I was assured that it is fine for protection training.


I don't know if it is "normal" or not - that's a Nelson question. Personally, I would never have anyone work my dog when I'm not there. (Well, there are a very few exceptions but I can count them on three fingers and only because I know them and the pile of experience behind each one.)

I was told that the handlers usually need more training than the dog does - and I've seen that to be very true, with myself and others. So, what good does it do to send the dog away for foundation work if you don't know how to handle the dog?

Why would it not be ok for obedience clients but be normal for PP? I'm curious to know the reasoning there.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Ultimatek9 » November 21st, 2006, 12:12 pm

He boards and trains most of his clients' dogs, whether obedience, protection, or whatever.

When I train my clients dogs (especially obedience or behavior modification), I want the owners to be involved. I think they need to learn more than the dogs do.

I haven't had any previous experience with protection training other than working with Jim, so I am not sure what is normal and what is not.
Carla Ann
UWP UAGI Medwin Jaeger Von Deuce CGC TT TD SD HIC FD FDX FDCH FDCH-S FDCH-G WP3
UWP CH Lil Bit O' Hennessy CGC TT TD FD FDX FDCH WP3 TDA(3x)
CH 'PR' Diablo Bullys Patron On The Rocks CGC TT TD
Bullocks Mak'n U Green With Envy
Diablos My Time To Shine
User avatar
Ultimatek9
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 121
Location: Florida

Postby Nelson » November 22nd, 2006, 2:51 pm

Usually when someone doesn't want you to his/her training it raises a BIG RED FLAG! Only a person who has something to hide will NOT want you there.

Just recently I was at an event and it was "curious" to hear how there was a tammer (not trainer) who said that he never lets anyone see his training sessions. Reason? He said that he was afraid they'd call humane officers on him!

Michelle, I'm with you on this one. I wouldn't let a person who doesn't want me present during training, anywhere near my dog period! About the animal tammers: animal tammers are the ones who tied wild animals (tigers, lions) to a post and whipped the daylights out of them. In a day where we have so much technology, many people have evolved into animal trainers where they fry and whip the dogs into submission instead of actually teaching the dog the behavior and skills you want of him.

At least this technology (forums) can be used to guide and warn newbies of potential dangers!
Nelson Rodriguez

"Ah grasshopper, how is it that you cannot?" Master Po
http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/WorkingPitBulls/
User avatar
Nelson
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 50
Location: Central Florida

Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 6th, 2006, 3:31 am

i don't know that i completely agree with that. maybe for protection that's true, i think i get extra response out of my dog because he's protecting ME and doing things to please ME, but at my work i do board and trains for obedience all the time and have a lot of success with it and there's absolutely nothing that we do with the dogs that we wouldn't do right in front of the owners, but realistically sometimes things just get done quicker and better if it's left up to professionals, and then the owners are brought up to speed and educated about it.
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado

Postby brooksybrooks1 » December 6th, 2006, 3:37 am

i don't think that the bark and hold was that pretty, but he's learning, right?! and although jumping is a technical fault and dogs will be pointed for it, i don't think it's a reflection of how tough he ISN'T, but rather in many cases a display of toughness, regardless if it's the display we want. some of the toughest, no-joke, serious dogs i've ever seen do that, and i don't think that by just looking at this poor quality video we can really make any judgements either way. however, i definately think that there is something to be said for being very familiar with your trainer's credentials and seeing his results in other dogs and being educated about the sports you train for, good stuff to look into!
jenna
User avatar
brooksybrooks1
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 631
Location: Colorado


Return to Sports

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot]

cron