Torn acl and breeding stock

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby pitbullpony » February 9th, 2006, 6:16 pm

Rhetorical question; but I have seen it come up in other breeds.

Dog is OFA either fair/good - shouldn't make a difference to acl, but just to put it out there.

Dog has acl tear both legs and repaired; should dog be bred? Are acl injuries hereditary? Does the conformation of the dog lend to acl tears and thus the conformation being passed on lend to offspring with acl injuries.

ACL tears have been linked to hypothyroidism; is this also a concern when acl problems are experienced; have people checked thyroid when acl tears happen before they breed their dog?

Just curious;
pitbullpony
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 24
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby SisMorphine » February 9th, 2006, 7:23 pm

pitbullpony wrote:Rhetorical question; but I have seen it come up in other breeds.

Dog is OFA either fair/good - shouldn't make a difference to acl, but just to put it out there.

Dog has acl tear both legs and repaired; should dog be bred? Are acl injuries hereditary? Does the conformation of the dog lend to acl tears and thus the conformation being passed on lend to offspring with acl injuries.

ACL tears have been linked to hypothyroidism; is this also a concern when acl problems are experienced; have people checked thyroid when acl tears happen before they breed their dog?

Just curious;

I've been wondering the same thing, recently, as my roommate's dog is going through ACL surgery for both of his hind legs, but his lines are apparently amazing. He IS neutered, but I'd been pondering the "what if he wasn't" question lately.
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9233
Location: PR

Postby Miakoda » February 9th, 2006, 7:56 pm

One of my dogs, Sukari, has had double ACL sx (both knees). Her ACL tears are a direct result of her hip problems & the resulting gait that was formed.

A once in a lifetime ACL tear can be a spook incident. Dog was running & stepped in a hole or just twisted the wrong way. But for both knees to suffer ACL repairs I am a firm believer that there is an underlying genetic issue. The ACL is not some flimsy, weak ligament....it's one of the main stabilizers in the knee & actually is quite difficult to tear unless (again) there is an underlying genetic fault. Personally, I wouldn't consider it w/out fully knowing the "why's" of the whole situation.

As for Sukari, she now sports 80lb test clear monofilament fishing line as Anterior Cruciate "Ligaments". She's doing great. (however, even if she wasn't a rescue, having to deal with those issues, I wouldn't consider it)
User avatar
Miakoda
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 953
Location: Louisiana

Postby pocketpit » February 9th, 2006, 8:04 pm

In regards to double ACL dogs I've always found this particular question interstesting. We all know that poor conformation can lead to ACL problems but whether or not there is another hereditary componenent is an good question. Of course we all know that when one knee is shot the other bears all of the weight for the animal and consequently animals frequently require surgery on both knees when the "good" knee goes bad while compensating for the "bad" one till it's healed. But is is merely because of that?
Another study I'd like to see the results of is obesity in regards to ACL surgeries. Of all the repairs I've seen done on dogs (we have a board certified surgeon that works out of our office so we see A LOT) I've yet to see one done on an animal of healthy weight. They are all overweight or morbidly obese.
Genetics vs conformation vs weight? What's the real answer?
User avatar
pocketpit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1201
Location: WA

Postby Patch O' Pits » February 9th, 2006, 9:10 pm

I've never heard it being related to thryroid issues. Do you have a link to that study?

I have however heard obesity, dogs too straight in the stiffles and HD can make a dog more at risk for it.

But also it has to be taken into consderation how it occurred like also mentioned. Just a thought: it seems agility dogs even with great structure may be more at risk to them due to the tight turns required in some courses as well as those that really work hard in general.
Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!
http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg
User avatar
Patch O' Pits
Welcome Wagger
 
Posts: 4426
Location: Northeastern, USA

Postby Miakoda » February 9th, 2006, 9:33 pm

I keep all my dogs on the lean side regardless of if they are working dogs or couch warming dogs. Sukari was a nice 55lbs & lean. However, she has borderline dysplasia & had an awkwards gait b/c of it (kind of tucked under in the rear). I think her problems were a result of structure vs. obesity.

But like you said, obesity causes all kinds of problems & musculoskeletal is a big issue as the body is just no designed to handle that kind of weight.

I'm gald you brought up this topic. It is very interesting to me as well as we have seen an increase in this problem (whether it's actually increased in frequency or vets are now able to diagnose it better is also a question). So keep it up!
User avatar
Miakoda
Devoutly Bully
 
Posts: 953
Location: Louisiana

Postby pitbullpony » February 10th, 2006, 11:01 am

Apparently Dr. W Jean Dodds DVM has linked hypothyroidism to acl tears; I have seen it somewhere else as well; but more along the lines of untreated hypothyroidism causes ligament weakness.

The reason I feel there is a link is that my deceased pit Indy was seasonally hypothyroid - he was a strange bird; but when his blood test was received he was low-normal - but clinically showed signs - ballooned up to 120 lbs (from about 80-90 lbs couch weight), he was horribly bald - symmetrical black skinned balding patches on either side of his body, he was cold, ate like a horse; but his skin was horrible. My vet wanted to do more tests, but I contacted a naturopathic vet and she said; bull breeds often test incorrectly; but once on soloxine come right back. So vet put him on a trial dose; he did very well. However middle of the summer (this happened in March of his 2 year old year, just after his yearly vaxx) the soloxine was too much and he went down to needing no doses at all - he became hyperthyroid on the meds.

I now wonder if his was seasonal, or he simply reacted poorly to vaccinations (also a idea presented by Dodds).
He didn't get an acl tear until his 6th year; he was thyroid normal at the time; but perhaps because it took me so long and the vet so long to recognize the initial thyroid problem that he suffered ligament damage then and as he aged and was vaccinated more the ligaments were damaged more.

He was not a graceful dog; at about 70 lbs. legitimate and 80 at the time; he ran like a rhinoceros and of course had the heart of a pitbull; was all try; so he would chase balls, frisbees, etc and simply stopped too hard and damaged the ligament.

He subsequently came down with kidney failure in the fall of his 6th year and was put to sleep just after his 7th birthday.

Loved him dearly; he was my own first dog; but I will definitely do things differently now.
pitbullpony
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 24
Location: Ontario, Canada

Postby mnp13 » February 10th, 2006, 12:30 pm

In humans, ACL tears are more common in women because of our wider hips and angle of the femur. I don't think it's s stretch to say that structure would also have an impact on ACL damage in dogs as well.

A sudden injury can cause an ACL injury, but outside of that there are probably genetic factors.

If you have a dog that you can't seem to keep the weight off of, there is also probably a genetic reason for that.

The way I look at it, if your dog has any problems that are not related to a specific acute injury - it's probably not good breeding stock.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Patch O' Pits » February 10th, 2006, 6:25 pm

pitbullpony
Thanks for sharing the info!

So sorry about Indy. :(
Patch O' Pits Pursuit-O-Perfection

Run Hard at the Rainbow Bridge My Angel Sock-M! I Love You Baby Girl! Now that your Mom Starlit is up there too, please help her learn the ropes, love and keep her company until I can see you both again. Starlit I love you!
http://i14.tinypic.com/2a8q345.jpg
User avatar
Patch O' Pits
Welcome Wagger
 
Posts: 4426
Location: Northeastern, USA


Return to Nutrition & Health

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot]