Obedience FAILURE! (She bit the Trainer!!)

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Postby msvette2u » August 12th, 2006, 12:00 pm

Put her in her crate, take her out three or four times a day to exercise her and to go to the bathroom and LEAVE HER THERE UNTIL YOU GO SEE A TRAINER. Having her loose in the house with you is not doing either of you any favors.

Those are great suggestions, Michelle, and she hasn't "earned" the right to be loose, if she's being so obnoxious. I might add, ALWAYS keep her leashed when she is out of her crate, too!
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Postby mnp13 » August 12th, 2006, 4:00 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with some of what mnp posted. Some dogs ARE wired wrong and it has nothing to do with the handler. Sometimes it is rude, untrained behavior, but other times it is not. Just as it is impossible to assess this dog and suggest euth over the internet, it is equally irresponsible to suggest that the dog is 'fine' and just needs more work. She is in a home with children, is she not?


Of course some dogs are just wired wrong. However, I personally have handled over 100 dogs in the past 4 years I have been in rescue. Three were obviously wired wrong, another small handful were questionable. the rest were pretty much handler based problems.

The VAST majority of dogs who act like jerks were taught to be that way. You can easily teach a dog to be dominant, just like you can easily teach a dog to be aggressive. It's reversing that education that is a long and often difficult process.

Kingsgurl wrote:Why don't you e-mail someone like BADRAP, Anissa? (http://www.badrap.org)


Anissa has some excellent in person resources in her area. Contacting a rescue on the other side of the country doesn't make much sense to me.
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Postby Kingsgurl » August 12th, 2006, 4:39 pm

Anissa has some excellent in person resources in her area. Contacting a rescue on the other side of the country doesn't make much sense to me.

Since Anissa has her hands pretty full right now with the upcoming de-ployment and surgery, I thought she was having trouble finding the time to work with these great resources. I gave her the link to a resource whom I trust implicitely and who would be willing to at least talk with her over the phone (where it really doesn't matter if you are cross-country or down the block) and get even more advice. When you are dealing with something like this, it certainly doesn't hurt to get all the experienced input you can, now does it?
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Postby mnp13 » August 12th, 2006, 7:18 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:When you are dealing with something like this, it certainly doesn't hurt to get all the experienced input you can, now does it?


No, it doesn't, however if we are talking about time investment it makes FAR more sense to speak to someone who can actually help you in person than yet another person who can't actually see what you are talking about.
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Postby Kingsgurl » August 12th, 2006, 8:35 pm

Like I said, this is just my opinion. I like to get as MUCH input from as many experienced people as I can. You can tell a LOT more about a situation actually speaking one on one with someone (even if it's by phone) then you ever can over the internet, and if she isn't able to, at this moment, get to someone in person, it's certainly better than where she is at now.
As long as she is getting qualified help from somewhere, soon, I guess it's all good :)
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Postby msvette2u » August 12th, 2006, 9:00 pm

Kingsgurl wrote:Like I said, this is just my opinion. I like to get as MUCH input from as many experienced people as I can. You can tell a LOT more about a situation actually speaking one on one with someone (even if it's by phone) then you ever can over the internet, and if she isn't able to, at this moment, get to someone in person, it's certainly better than where she is at now.
As long as she is getting qualified help from somewhere, soon, I guess it's all good :)

Someone on the phone is not going to be as good as someone in person - I'd never recommend anyone make a decision such as this from a description (which is always subjective) over a telephone, but if badrap is good at all THEY will tell her to seek the advice of someone IN PERSON.
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 9:02 pm

"I really dont know how we will ever socialize her if we can trust er within feet of another dog."
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I know I am coming into this a bit late, but bare with me. First of all your above comment I have a couple questions and then a comment of my own. 1. Why would you take on a rescue dog, if you are not going to be open to the fact that the dog will require some work...wether a little or alot? Rescue dogs are usually a rescue for a reason, ie. irresponsible owners, etc. Usually the dogs are lacking in any real training and or have behavioral problems that need work. I had a rescue for 8 yrs., they all needed work on some level when I recieved them. My other question is a bit obvious...why would you even own Pit Bulls if you feel you cannot trust a dog that is not going to be trustworthy within feet of another dog? These dogs are NOT usually social with other strange dogs. If she lunges and acts aggressive, she is acting like a Pit Bull, and needs training on her manners and you need to work on getting control of the situation. If this is not something you can handle...then get another breed that better suits your personality and lifestyle. Pit Bulls are most certainly *not* for everyone.
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"The trainer realized that we were having some problems and came over to speak to us, as soon as she went to acknowledge Jaida.. Jaida lunged up and BIT HER! There wasnt blood, and the trainer took immediate control of her.. but it scared the poop out of me, and Im sure everyone else in that room.

I was so stressed over this whole ordeal when we walked out, my husband and I were on the verge of divorce! We argued the whole way home, he kept telling me it could have been a 'freak' accident.. and when I snapped back.. He said.. "poop happens". I was smurfing IRRATE! I kept asking him if he'd think the same thing: "poop happens" if she REALLY got ahold of someone next time and his fanny was charged for it. If this was anyone else she would have bitten.. we wouldnt have been walking out of there without a lawsuit on our hands."
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I was not there...but *not all* nipping in dogs is aggression. Pit Bulls are known to be mouthy and can get over excited and nip at everyone in play. Again may be an issue with manners. If this dog was acting aggressively toward the trainer.... 1. She most likely would have made a real bite leaving damage. I should know... I have taken many bites and nips in the past as a groomer, I know what a serious "nip" feels and looks like. 2. If this dog was serious and ment that bite in aggression, I doubt that trainer would have been able to take control over the dog as you, yourself said she did.
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"As most of you know.. we just got Jaida a couple of weeks ago. We know she was set to be euthanized 2x in the past, and has been through 9+ homes in the past year. We dont have any other background information on her, so Im not sure what to do at this point. What if she's been known to bite before?"
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If you are really this niave about dogs and this breed why on earth did you take on a dog that has been through 9 homes??? This does not compute!
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"I know the first response to a dog biting is 'it needs to be put down'.. but Im not sure if I can live with that guilt. Not to mention, I signed one hell of a contract when we adopted her."
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The first response to a dog biting is it needs to be put down???? Where on earth did you get this load of dog pile?? There are SOOOO many variables to a "dog bite" that this belief is absolute trash!! You have no idea wether this was an intended bite at all yet. So far what you described sounds more like a nip... now if it was for play, excitement/badmanners, aggression, etc. that has not been established. It really seems you might want to rethink owning a breed like a Pit Bull. They can be a handful for many people and they really are not a breed for the passive or easy going person. Nor are they for the inexperienced with powerful breeds that can exhibit aggression. This has been my experience with dealing in rescue and this breed and most people.
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 12th, 2006, 9:02 pm

msvette2u wrote:
Kingsgurl wrote:Like I said, this is just my opinion. I like to get as MUCH input from as many experienced people as I can. You can tell a LOT more about a situation actually speaking one on one with someone (even if it's by phone) then you ever can over the internet, and if she isn't able to, at this moment, get to someone in person, it's certainly better than where she is at now.
As long as she is getting qualified help from somewhere, soon, I guess it's all good :)

Someone on the phone is not going to be as good as someone in person - I'd never recommend anyone make a decision such as this from a description (which is always subjective) over a telephone, but if badrap is good at all THEY will tell her to seek the advice of someone IN PERSON.


Exactly. There is a wealth of help for her at her finger tips, all she has to do is make the call but you can't force someone to dial a phone and invest an hour or two in their dog's life. :|
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 9:17 pm

anissa wrote:Oh yeah, its possible that it was an accident, but there wasnt any playing or anything to initiate it. The trainer came over, sort of leaned over to acknowledge Jaida, and she lunged up (jumped, feet off the ground) and bit her. The trainer went into dominance mode, grabbed her snout and said NO until she was in a down. :sad2:


The fact that this trainer grabbed the snout of the dog like that and was able to put her in a down! I reeeeally doubt this was an act of aggression. Again, I was not there and this is all subjective as online advise means little unless you can see it. All I have to go by is your description. Aggressive bites are typically caused by dominance or fear (I am being very general). If this dog was acting out of fear and was biting out of fear, as soon as the trainer grabbed the muzzle this dog would most likely have come unglued as grabbing the dog like this would have confirmed her fear. (Bad choice of reaction bye the trainer, I might add). If this had been caused by dominance the trainer grabbing the dog by the muzzle is an act of dominance and would have been a direct action to a challenge and this would have really provoked more aggression, even possibly intensifying it. It sounds more like she was showing bad manners...excitable and mouthy, etc. she has obviously carried with her from no real training. Too many homes and who knows what this dog has been through, she is probably somewhat socially retarded and needs alot of work in manners. As an aside Pit rescues are no guarantee of purity, even when they look it. I have had one Cattle Dog Pit mix, she looked pretty much like a pure pit and solid white (she was deaf). Pit Bulls when mixed with other dogs their genes tend to really dominate and so sometimes even mixes do not look like mixes. She could be a herder mix and is acting like a herder. Too many possible reasons for this single episode.
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Postby Kingsgurl » August 12th, 2006, 9:26 pm

msvette2u wrote:
Kingsgurl wrote:Like I said, this is just my opinion. I like to get as MUCH input from as many experienced people as I can. You can tell a LOT more about a situation actually speaking one on one with someone (even if it's by phone) then you ever can over the internet, and if she isn't able to, at this moment, get to someone in person, it's certainly better than where she is at now.
As long as she is getting qualified help from somewhere, soon, I guess it's all good :)

Someone on the phone is not going to be as good as someone in person - I'd never recommend anyone make a decision such as this from a description (which is always subjective) over a telephone, but if badrap is good at all THEY will tell her to seek the advice of someone IN PERSON.


I never suggested they wouldn't. I did say they are someone who would speak to her objectively if she needed it. Also, I said some LIKE BADRAP, if there are other rescues/organizations of equal stature in your area, then use them. I don't care who you use, get some QUALIFIED help and get it fast.
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 9:29 pm

anissa wrote:[
And you may want to reread what I originally posted.. She DID lunge up at her (feet off the ground), growled and snapped right onto her!


Here is exactly what you posted I copied and pasted from your original post:
"The trainer realized that we were having some problems and came over to speak to us, as soon as she went to acknowledge Jaida.. Jaida lunged up and BIT HER! There wasnt blood, and the trainer took immediate control of her.. but it scared the poop out of me, and Im sure everyone else in that room."

If I am now to go by what you are saying this time (very different), I would really have to say this does not sound right. If the dog growled and lunged hard enough for "feet off ground". And then snapped right onto her???...yet NO damage...not even a bruise?? And the trainer GRABBED the MUZZLE and made her lay down?? And this dog did not snap at that or react????? I have delt with dogs all my life and have worked with them since I was 18 (I'm 36 - do the math-lol). This does not jive at all. I cannot take these puzzle peices and even come close to fitting them together to make a picture. Your first description made more sense!
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 9:36 pm

I live in the SF bay area. I have a friend who does rescue with BADRAP. They are a great group, yes. However, how can they help someone clear across the U.S.? It is no different then what people are doing here. She needs to get help in person, with someone local. You cannot give useful advice on the phone or the internet. We can all give our opinions and experiences and she can learn something from that. However, as for the dog and her actually getting help, she needs to get help in person, there is nothing a phone call or an MB post can do to evaluate this dog and her situation. It's 2 dimensional at best.
Last edited by Tha Pete! on August 12th, 2006, 10:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 9:59 pm

anissa wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:What happened?


She bit me yesterday. I was sitting at the computer, and my husband was standing next to the desk talking to me. Jaida was sitting at his feet. I took my hand off of the mouse and just hung my arm over the chair, and she leaped towards my hand and chomp! I didnt move suddenly in any way to startle her.. again it was just out of nowhere.

There was blood this time, but she let go just as quickly as she did with the trainer incident. As soon as I yelled, she took off running. I wasnt handling treats or have any smell on my hand that could have prompted this.


I have been bitten and I have been nipped. I was bitten in the hand before when I was a kennel tech. and I was wearing rubber cleaning gloves. My hand swelled in the glove and was not usable and very bruised and painful for days. I think she is a rude dog and is really bad mannered. She does not really sound aggressive to me. She sounds mouthy and out of control and some dogs do learn to act out like kids who grew up in a bad home or lax parents. This dog has gone through too many homes and has devoloped bad manners/behaviors that no one has been around long enough to consistently work on them. The dog has no stability because her life and relationships have none. She is a good example of what is wrong with the average dog owner and how it can effect an otherwise good dog. I have no idea, what she is really like, but I know I have seen good dogs *act out*, because of bad owners! You want to hear stories about Pit Bulls that were wired wrong... I have them!
In 20 years of having this breed in my home, I have had to euthanize 3 dogs. 2 I took myself, a 3rd I evaluated for another rescue and she was not right in the head. 20 yrs. 3 dogs. Not good gambling odds.
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Postby Tha Pete! » August 12th, 2006, 10:33 pm

anissa wrote:I do not see how my husbands deployment could/would make working with Jaida any harder than if he were here. Sure.. Id have his support and someone to take the dogs on a nightly run, but other than that, I do everything else for and with the dogs on my own. Taking Jaida in knowing she had hyperactivity and vocal problems were not reason enough for us to NOT take her. These are 'relatively' simple problems we can work on. This 'biting' problem was one we couldnt forsee, or were told about before getting her.


You're going to have surgery and you brought home a rescue dog? You would have been far better off with a little puppy with no former mental baggage. Regardless, you have her now. Your husband being there will make all the difference. Namely, you will be helpless for a few weeks. If they cut your stomach muscles you will be very, very helpless and weak. Most of our back strength, etc. is supported by stomach muscles. Not to mention bad mannered dogs that can jump up and injure. And lack of excersize is one of the biggest simple causes of behavioral problems. So whatever problems you face now, lack of proper excersize will add to it.
You are really in a bit of a pickle. I hope you get help soon!
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Postby 04100824 » August 12th, 2006, 11:08 pm

[quote="Tha PeteThe first response to a dog biting is it needs to be put down???? Where on earth did you get this load of dog pile??[/quote]

Not to defend this situation, really, but when I confessed that Reno had a problem with GROWLING at people, I was told that he was messed up - to have him put down - that this wasn't normal, and I was making other pit bulls in shelters die and harboring an animal that was defective...

because he growled. Not bit - growled.

I'm just saying that I know where she's coming from by defending herself against the possibility of people telling her to put her dog down.
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Postby 04100824 » August 12th, 2006, 11:10 pm

BTW~

It wasn't on this board necessarily that I was told this...

but I was, and I understand why she said this to get the option out of the way. It's hard helping a Pit Bull get through their issues - sometimes even amongst other Pit Bull lovers.
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Postby Kingsgurl » August 13th, 2006, 1:42 pm

Any updates? Anissa, did you talk with those resources in your area MNP was talking about (I'm new here, so sorry I don't know who they are)
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Postby anissa » August 13th, 2006, 3:12 pm

Yes.. we're meeting with Charles on Tuesday.
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Postby rockermom » August 13th, 2006, 9:42 pm

04100824 wrote:
Tha Pete wrote:The first response to a dog biting is it needs to be put down???? Where on earth did you get this load of dog pile??


Not to defend this situation, really, but when I confessed that Reno had a problem with GROWLING at people, I was told that he was messed up - to have him put down - that this wasn't normal, and I was making other pit bulls in shelters die and harboring an animal that was defective...

because he growled. Not bit - growled.

I'm just saying that I know where she's coming from by defending herself against the possibility of people telling her to put her dog down.


Yes I do remember reading this on a board somewhere.
I am a first time owner and I have gotten the idea that if my dog did what anissas dog did or what Reno was doing he should be done for. It has worried me so much that when my dog gets mouthy, I start to worry, and think. Oh no is he wired wrong? Sometimes reading stuff on the internet is more than I need to know.

Anissa- Im glad your getting help. It sucks to be in your position.
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Postby sadowner » August 13th, 2006, 11:46 pm

I read the trainer grabbed the dogs snout?

All i know is , When my dog went nuts, Their was no way in hell anyone was grabbing him anyplace. He looked meaner then any dog i've ever seen in life or a horror movie. :cry: He was in total "im going to rip you apart" mode. Growling, teeth out, snoorting,barking ,spit flying. He chased me and all. Now after that and reading this all. It sounds like your dog is really scared. :| Again, im just a normal pit owner (former) not an expert or anything, i just wanted to post that.
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