Breed a litter and then kill half the pups???

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby turtle » February 1st, 2006, 10:17 pm

Patch O' Pits wrote:Yes, you can tell which pups will be show quality by evaluating them at or close to 8 weeks of age. A pup at 8 weeks pretty much mimics the struture he will have as an adult. It is pretty amazing when you think about it.


I did not know that! Yes, I asked about it as it seemed awfully young to be able to tell the conformation and structure.

But the thing that really gets me is that these are puppies from health tested and titled parents.

And there are quite a few people who would not adopt a shelter or rescue dog because they want to know about the parents and they want health testing and titles. So these "pet" quality pups could easily be sold with a spay/neuter contract.

Those people who want a papered pet would not get a rescue dog in any case so it is not taking homes away from the rescue dogs.

It's just wrong to bring puppies into the world and then kill them as babies just because you want more show dogs.

Those puppies are living things and deserve to live.

If they had bad temperaments or major health problems, that's one thing but to just kill them because they are not "pretty" enough is sick!
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Postby SisMorphine » February 1st, 2006, 10:22 pm

I'll start by saying: I didn't read the linked post. I'm too tired this evening.

Culling:
I could never kill a puppy. If I had a litter (you know, by the miracle of my dog randomly sprouting balls again), I would not be able to kill a pup because it wasn't exactly what I wanted. I'm sorry, I just can't do it. This is why I don't breed.

I know MANY extremely reputable breeders who cull. It is for the health of the line, for the reputation of the line. One local breeder, a few years ago, had a puppy in her litter with MANY health problems. One of her employees was there when she was going to PTS it and she said "NO! Don't do it! I'll take that pup. She may not look perfect, but she doesn't deserve to die because of it."
The dog turned into an absolute mess. I don't even think I could list all of the problems with it. Temperment was the only thing it had, health, absolutely not (as far as I know it was the only one from the litter that was to be culled, as really her dogs are near perfection all of the time . . . it's amazing). The dog died a miserable death at 2. The breeder then said to the employee "If you had let me cull the way I usually do, it could have saved both you and I the heartache."

Culling is a responsible thing though I do know, what I consider to be, responsible breeders who do not do it because they can't stomach the thought. Like I had said before, I wouldn't be able to do it. But I think it take an amazingly strong person to be able to look at the betterment of the breed (whatever breed) and cull as necessary.
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Postby SisMorphine » February 1st, 2006, 10:23 pm

gf turtle wrote:But the thing that really gets me is that these are puppies from health tested and titled parents.

The thing is, you can take two amazingly healthy human beings and they will produce a child with Down Syndrome. It's not necessarily the lines, that do this. It's what happens in utero . . . things you can't avoid.
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Postby Kangas Mommy » February 1st, 2006, 10:27 pm

OK but why breed. I mean if your just gonna kill pups that are not "perfect". It is simalar to Hitlers "perfect race". This sickens me. I think the pups should be sent here to PA and i will find them homes and give them a chance..GOD PEOPLE! I JUST HATE PEOPLE! :?
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Postby pLaurent » February 1st, 2006, 10:56 pm

a few years ago, had a puppy in her litter with MANY health problems.


But we're not talking about many, or severe, health problems. We're talking about killing puppies not perfect enough to win dog shows.

My dog is conformationally very imperfect, yet her temperament and health are pretty stellar.

Most people aren't looking for show dogs. They are looking for sweet and healthy family pets and a dog to have fun with.

Anyone who can take their puppies, plop them down on a stainless steel table and say "Kill it. It's not perfect" shouldn't be dealing with animals. Maybe propagating African Violets might be a better choice.
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Postby turtle » February 1st, 2006, 10:57 pm

SisMorphine wrote:
gf turtle wrote:But the thing that really gets me is that these are puppies from health tested and titled parents.

The thing is, you can take two amazingly healthy human beings and they will produce a child with Down Syndrome. It's not necessarily the lines, that do this. It's what happens in utero . . . things you can't avoid.


Yes, but from what I read, there are no unhealthy puppies in that litter.

I have no problem with putting down unhealthy puppies. But if you read the thread, that is not the case.

The puppies are healthy. The breeder just wants the "show quality" ones.

I'm sorry but I feel that is no reason to kill them.

In the case you cited above, yes that pup should have been PTS. It was not a healthy pupppy.

Why breed if you are going to kill half the litter because they are not up to show standards? Surely there are pet homes that would love a pup like this! There are too few litters out there that the parents are health tested and titled.

It's just wrong to kill innnocent puppies at 8 weeks old.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 1st, 2006, 11:39 pm

I agree! I wonder if the REAL reason behind the culling is so that the breeders can claim they had a litter of ALL show quality pups? There will be no proof they didn't. The only pups registered will be the ones thye choose to let live, the show puppies. How convienient. :|
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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 12:03 am

I'd like to comment that I don't recall anything in the OP stating that these were 'only' show dogs. For some working dog breeders there is FAR more than just a pretty face to consider. A dog that doesn't have the conformation, drive and temperament to work doesn't leave the kennel property.

Yes, everyone knows that no parents reproduce perfictly every time, of course there will be less-than-desirable outcomes.

I could never kill a puppy. If I had a litter (you know, by the miracle of my dog randomly sprouting balls again), I would not be able to kill a pup because it wasn't exactly what I wanted. I'm sorry, I just can't do it. This is why I don't breed.


I agree.
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Postby Red » February 2nd, 2006, 2:21 am

The way I see is that there is simply no need of more dogs, period.Working dogs, pet dogs, show dogs, merles, green dogs..anything.
We are floaded in pit bulls, people need to stop thinking about themselves and get a grip on things.
Breeding a litter and keeping what's worthy....how convenient, the easy way out.Don't we have a sh*t load of pit bulls already?If someone breeds a litter nowdays then they need to take responsability for it.Culling is killing, calling it "humane euthanasia" is a load of crap, at the end puppies are killed.Humane euthanasia is done when a dog is suffering for old age, diseases, is scared of its own shadow and such, not when a pup is healthy and sound but don't fit someone's showing/working standard.
It is leaving creatures we are talking about.How about not breeding?Beautiful concept.
Besides, when a breeder places one of hew own dogs in a home whose dogs are confiscated by AC due to neglect maybe this person should not breed dogs in the first place and start thinking that responsability is not an option.
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Postby JCleve86 » February 2nd, 2006, 2:54 am

I do see what your saying Red. But...if nobody were to breed...what would be the point of rescue? If somehow magically we made it so nobody could ever breed another pit bull again...what are we working for here? Eventually the dogs would die out and we wouldn't have a breed left to fight for. Of course it would never happen, but that is the basis of the argument. Why cut out dogs from good lines due to ethics only to leave BYBs producing puppies for us to rescue, for them to produce more puppies, for us to rescue, for them to produce more puppies...

I know many of you, for good reason, dislike breeders, period. However, I can personally with one hundred percent confidence guarantee that you will never find a Matrix dog in rescue. Ever. No chance. The dogs that he has produced shouldn't...NOT exist simply because other breeders are doing it wrong.

It's not about individual dogs...it's about the breed...and in order to preserve the breed we HAVE to preserve good lines in the hope that some day, when this pit bull craze blows over, we'll still have something to show for it.
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Postby Red » February 2nd, 2006, 3:18 am

I do see what your saying Red. But...if nobody were to breed...what would be the point of rescue? If somehow magically we made it so nobody could ever breed another pit bull again...what are we working for here? Eventually the dogs would die out and we wouldn't have a breed left to fight for. Of course it would never happen, but that is the basis of the argument.


If this happens there will still be pit bulls in shelter for the next 10 years.
What are we working for?A breed whose fanciers can't see past their own interest.I don't buy for a second that who breeds pit bulls now is thinking about the bred itself.That is the excuse "but if we don't breed the good dogs, the breed will go to Hell".The thing is that the breed went to Hell already, thanks to breeders, even the ones who call themselves reputable.Even if their own dogs don't end up in shelters, think about how many intact animals they sell each year.Can you tell me that the offsprings of these dogs will never see a shelter?Hardly.
Responsability doesn't end selling a dog, when what comes after it results in hundreds more dogs bred and so many puppies.This kennel is keeping the chosen puppies for itself, great.In the meantime a few puppies will be killed and more pit bulls are around.And hundreds were killed today because shelters are full.Yup, while we discuss about the so admirable breeders who cull pet quality pups many solid dogs got a needle stuck in their legs .It is not the time to breed anything.
If breeders care about the breed they can invest their time figthing BSL (funny how very few do), offering help and support to rescue and shelters and start some education among themselves.
They can do some clean up, even if they weren't directly responsible for it.I do it and I have never bred a dog in my life and so do others.Why can't they, instead of sitting at dog shows arguing with each others and raise puppies and the send them to death?
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Postby Maryellen » February 2nd, 2006, 9:19 am

i agree with Red. good posting... and for the breeder to post a pic of the pups and then say she was going to euth the non working/show pups is wrong on a public forum....again we go with the keep it private and not on a forum crap.... Irregardless of how good her dogs might be, like red said, there are toooo many pitbulls dying in shelters every day..... the only breeders that stopped breeding are the ones that TRULY care about the breed's status right now.. the others are just in for the $$$$$ and dont care about the breeds demise right now.. why should they? they just pump out pups, whether responsible breeders or byb's , its all the same... $$$$$$
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Postby Karen » February 2nd, 2006, 9:57 am

Maryellen wrote:i agree with Red. good posting... and for the breeder to post a pic of the pups and then say she was going to euth the non working/show pups is wrong on a public forum....again we go with the keep it private and not on a forum crap.... Irregardless of how good her dogs might be, like red said, there are toooo many pitbulls dying in shelters every day..... the only breeders that stopped breeding are the ones that TRULY care about the breed's status right now.. the others are just in for the $$$$$ and dont care about the breeds demise right now.. why should they? they just pump out pups, whether responsible breeders or byb's , its all the same... $$$$$$


Maryellen I know 3 very responsible breeders that have litters planned this year. One's last litter was almost 7 years ago and it is now or never as the female is getting long in the tooth (6). Lora's Doodle's due for a date and is 5. Dilly's breeder had a breeding planned for Dilly's year but then well the Perfect Princess' litter happened and she turned 2 last month. The breeding that she pushwed back will be almost 3 years after hers and KiKi is 6 already and Ruth wants to spay her. KiKi has never been bred either. None of the females I mentioned have been.

Are they supposed to not breed for the next 2 years because people that bred last year decided the next 2 have to be litter free? As for making money on litters, Dilly's litter cost Ruth money because 2 of the 4 were gifts. That's right. Dilly was a present and so was Rock. Pee Wee ended back with Ruth so the number she kept out of that litter was 3.

As to Red's assumption that all breeders place pups then the pups of those pups or grand pups end up in shelters, nope. Dolly, Rock and Dilly will never be bred and Pee Wee IF he did would be to Ruth's dog. So not all dogs from all breeders go on to produce dogs that end up in shelters. MOST breeders DO though. I'm just saying don't lump every single one in the pot with the rest.

As to Elissa she sucks. Period. And Ray is an ijit. That litter won't be culled any more than his last one with the PETS placed in homes was. He's just spouting what he thinks people want to hear. Elissa is a piece of garbage that has dogs repo'd by people in poor shape as well as she has sold dogs to a person who had animal control take all their animals. She sent a pup there after that happened. Her reasoning? Well she never neglected MY dogs. ?????? How does she know? According to people that had hands on HER dogs while at that woman's said they were extremely thin, the pups were getting rickets, and wormy pot bellies and the coats were terrible. But she wasn't neglecting HER dogs. Whatever.
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Postby pLaurent » February 2nd, 2006, 12:39 pm

The thing is that the breed went to Hell already, thanks to breeders, even the ones who call themselves reputable.Even if their own dogs don't end up in shelters, think about how many intact animals they sell each year.Can you tell me that the offsprings of these dogs will never see a shelter?


Exactly. Every breeder - good or bad - swears no dog of theirs will ever end up in a shelter.

Well, SOMEONE'S dogs are, if you consider the 120,000+ dogs listed on Petfinder, a large number of them purebred and/or pit bulls and other bully breeds.

How many in unlisted shelters across the nation? I couldn't hazard a guess.

If this happens there will still be pit bulls in shelter for the next 10 years.


No kidding.
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Postby DemoDick » February 2nd, 2006, 1:04 pm

Pit Bulls exist because of culling. All "purebred" dogs do. It is a practice that IMO is used far too infrequently these days, because breeders are either (1) too squeamish or (2) too greedy.

Mind you, I support rescue. I own a rescue dog. I refer every person who wants a pet dog to rescue. The thought of killing puppies is not at all pleasant. But for a breed to remain true to its physical and behavioral standard culling must be done. Yes, you can alter "less than perfect" pups and sell them as "pet quality". The problem with this is that shelters are full of "pet quality" dogs already. You want a pet? Go to a shelter or rescue.

Unfortunately, too many people look at this from an emotional perspective. We're not talking about Nazi Germany here. To compare the practice of culling dogs to Hitler's "Final Solution" is irresponsible rhetoric at best. It's right up there with the abortion protesters who carry placards showing aborted fetuses in trash bags.

I urge everyone to think about this from a rational, logical perspective. Proper culling reduces the amount of dogs in shelters and improves the individual breed well-being. I consider any breeder not prepared to cull irresponsible.

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Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 2:30 pm

DemoDick wrote:Pit Bulls exist because of culling. All "purebred" dogs do. It is a practice that IMO is used far too infrequently these days, because breeders are either (1) too squeamish or (2) too greedy.

Mind you, I support rescue. I own a rescue dog. I refer every person who wants a pet dog to rescue. The thought of killing puppies is not at all pleasant. But for a breed to remain true to its physical and behavioral standard culling must be done. Yes, you can alter "less than perfect" pups and sell them as "pet quality". The problem with this is that shelters are full of "pet quality" dogs already. You want a pet? Go to a shelter or rescue.

Unfortunately, too many people look at this from an emotional perspective. We're not talking about Nazi Germany here. To compare the practice of culling dogs to Hitler's "Final Solution" is irresponsible rhetoric at best. It's right up there with the abortion protesters who carry placards showing aborted fetuses in trash bags.

I urge everyone to think about this from a rational, logical perspective. Proper culling reduces the amount of dogs in shelters and improves the individual breed well-being. I consider any breeder not prepared to cull irresponsible.

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Amen Preacher.

This is why I love this forum. I've pretty much abandoned all of the others because you and Michelle definitely have good 'dog minds' and I enjoy the great discussion.

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Postby SisMorphine » February 2nd, 2006, 2:38 pm

Big_Ant wrote:Amen Preacher.

This is why I love this forum. I've pretty much abandoned all of the others because you and Michelle definitely have good 'dog minds' and I enjoy the great discussion.

- Anthony

Agreed. I was just telling my trainer about this thread and about how amazed I am to be on a board that can have a fully functional discussion regarding culling, including intelligent and well thought out replies (on both ends) and you can really learn a lot from threads like this.
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Postby Big_Ant » February 2nd, 2006, 2:45 pm

SisMorphine wrote:
Big_Ant wrote:Amen Preacher.

This is why I love this forum. I've pretty much abandoned all of the others because you and Michelle definitely have good 'dog minds' and I enjoy the great discussion.

- Anthony

Agreed. I was just telling my trainer about this thread and about how amazed I am to be on a board that can have a fully functional discussion regarding culling, including intelligent and well thought out replies (on both ends) and you can really learn a lot from threads like this.


Completely OFF-TOPIC, but has anyone seen the female from Midnight Sun named 'Trouble'. Oh my god I would love a dog out of that girl.

AMazing. Capital A and Capital M.

She's heading for GR CH right now I believe, I'd love to see what she's like outside of the ring. Sport or anything. I'd love a dog with structure like that to do some Schutzhund with, and possibly some agility.

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Postby mnp13 » February 2nd, 2006, 2:47 pm

:oops: thanks

When Charles and I were having concept discussions about this forum, that was one of the big points - constructive debate over even the most volitile topics.

We're glad you like it here! Now go invite your friends! :D
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Postby Jesseca » February 2nd, 2006, 2:49 pm

I understand culling, I just like to be ignorant when it happens. It makes me feel better. :)
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