Too late to be social?

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Postby a-bull » August 3rd, 2006, 10:29 am

Why do people insist on bringing their dogs into Petsmart?

I have seen so many dog tussles break out, with non-bully breeds, and although I never bring my dogs into Petsmart, I did bring them to training there and I can tell you they kept getting sick withint days of training class and it all disappeared when training ended. It's obvious to me they were picking up illnesses at the store. :(

If you can't train your dog to leave other dogs at the vet, wait outside. The vet's office usually appreciates that.

Oh, also teach your dog the "wait" command for going through doors. It's a big help for getting through the vet door first to check out what's in your path.
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Postby Jenn » August 3rd, 2006, 1:20 pm

I've always wondered the same thing, I don't bring my dogs to the store. I've said it before too (maybe here?) I don't want your dog touching me either. I don't want your dog sniffing me while I'm there, I don't want to touch your freaking puppy, I don't want to feel uncomfortable walking around while your dog or dogs act like idiots, and I don't want to feel like I have to wait until your off the aisle before I can walk down it since you can't control your dog. (no one in particular, just saying you in general) Maybe I'm just unsocialized, lol.
The vet makes exceptions for Benjamin & Maddie ~ by my request, and as long as it's just a minor issue such as shots or anything else I'm allowed to bring them in before they are open. As long as I let them know I'm coming, and to expect us. It's not that I don't trust my dogs, it's that I don't trust everyone else.
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Postby a-bull » August 3rd, 2006, 1:26 pm

JennKBM wrote:I've always wondered the same thing, I don't bring my dogs to the store. I've said it before too (maybe here?) I don't want your dog touching me either. I don't want your dog sniffing me while I'm there, I don't want to touch your freaking puppy, I don't want to feel uncomfortable walking around while your dog or dogs act like idiots, and I don't want to feel like I have to wait until your off the aisle before I can walk down it since you can't control your dog. (no one in particular, just saying you in general) Maybe I'm just unsocialized, lol.
The vet makes exceptions for Benjamin & Maddie ~ by my request, and as long as it's just a minor issue such as shots or anything else I'm allowed to bring them in before they are open. As long as I let them know I'm coming, and to expect us. It's not that I don't trust my dogs, it's that I don't trust everyone else.


Exactly, regarding other dogs . . .

My dogs are under my control at the vets, but many other people do not control their dogs, and therein lies the issue.

I also found a vet that does homevisits, if I need it. Just something else to consider. :)
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Postby cheekymunkee » August 3rd, 2006, 3:15 pm

I took mine to the Petsmart & Petco to get them used to going to different places & seeing different people. Justice went to an obed class at Petco for socialization. Munkee stopped going when other dogs started making him "nervous" ( for lack of a better word) and I just stopped taking Justice because she is shy & acts like I beat her when she meets new people in new places.

As for the vet, I do the same as Michelle. I leave them in the car with my daughter until they are called, then we scoot in, usually the side door but it isn;t always opened. I take them in pretty quickly so they don't have time to look around & see the other dogs.
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Postby JCleve86 » August 3rd, 2006, 6:07 pm

While I am an advocate of rescue for 99 percent of most folks interested in the breed, and against about 99 percent of folks breeding these dogs right now, I too agree that if done responsibly, breeding is acceptable. Responsibly being the key word there.

What stands out to me is that you mentioned your dog is wary of strangers...meaning strange humans? If so, your dog does NOT have the proper temperament for this breed, and certainly not a good enough temperament to be bred. What we need is more rock solid, properly tempered, structured, truly healthy pit bulls out there, whether they come from rescue or breeders. What we DON'T need is more pit bulls who are sketchy with people and might, in some lapse of owner judgement or a simple human error, make more headlines.

I know...this thread isn't about breeding...but nobody else commented on that and I find it very necessary to do so.
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Postby Jessie's_mom » August 3rd, 2006, 7:59 pm

NcPrisonguard wrote:Not responding about breeding or not, or getting rescue dogs or not..because I am to each his own kind of person, if you don't want to breed or have the breed bred then ok.. if someone wants to breed for the right purposes and is able to care, house, and feed 'X' numbers of dogs then I have no problem with that either.... Now about not muzzling.


What do you consider the right purpose? Just so you can have puppies? You are breeding a temperamentaly unsound dog just so you can have puppies from your dogs...this does not seem like a good or right purpose. Many people who contribute to the over population in the shelters, of ALL breeds, breed for the same "right" purpose you have...just think about the few pups you might produce that might end up in a shelter...do you want to know that you were responsible for their death. I helped a "friend" of mine and her dog give birth to 18 pit pups...an oopps litter...that's a lot of puppies for you to possibly be solely responsible for.

There is no need to get angry with everyone for sharing the opinion about breeding your dog when we all have seen and heard of so many dogs (who were once cute adoptable puppies) dying in shelters everyday.

All we ask is that you think and put your dogs' and their possible puppies' well being ahead of your want and need for pups.
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Postby mnp13 » August 3rd, 2006, 8:08 pm

Personally, I have a dog titled in conformation and weight pull, with his CGC and TT (passed TDI but I didn't want it). The next on the list is obedience and bite work. He looks like a Pit Bull, acts like a Pit Bull and is an ideal example of a Pit Bull.

I'm hesitant to breed him because there are just so many Pit Bulls out there already.

You may breed your dog because "your family and friends want them" but what about when they decide they want to have "just one litter"? Now there are two or three litters from dogs that you produced. Your "just one" can end up as the source for literally dozens of dogs.

Why? If your family and friends just want pets, I can provide you with 10 litters of Pit Bull pets.

It's about responsibility and looking farther than your own back yard.
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Postby Magnolia618 » August 3rd, 2006, 10:41 pm

Why do people insist on bringing their dogs into Petsmart?


To re-enforce their obedience and for socialization. I bring my dogs (particularly Maggie) anywhere that will allow her.
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Postby greenkozi » August 4th, 2006, 11:21 am

NcPrisonguard wrote:
grizzly wrote: nobody could talk me out of breeding my saints , but i don't have the issues you have. under stand a litter of pups could be up to 12 pups- thats alot of homes to find and work for what? what would you really benifit from your breeding?if something bad happened with one of the pups you produced( bites child or kills another dog)how will you feel then?to purposely breed dog you are responible for those pups.
i just can't see the pro's to your breeding


Well I have 2 acres of land so I have enough room for "X" amount of dogs I have the ability to feed and house the ones I could not find good homes for which would most likely be with friends and family so I would have the ability to take back any that were "problem pups" I am not saying that I am for sure going to breed them, and if I decide not to I will have them both fixed.


you have the ability (i take it financial?) to feed and house a litter but not to take your dog to training?

i'm going to withhold on a "lashing" about your protective pit bull, but breeding a pit bull should be done with the breeds' best interests in mind. it doesn't sound like your pit bull has breed standard temperament. if you can safely keep him in your house, that's fine by me. but i can't understand the need to produce more out of standard dogs. we've got plenty of those. :|
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Postby mnp13 » August 4th, 2006, 11:58 am

How breeding figures into this discussion:

You are keeping your male and female intact so that you can have the option to breed them in the future. From your own description, the male is not the best representative of the breed. You also have indicated some financial constraints which leads me to believe that you will be unable to do much health testing and that you are probably not planning to title your dogs. It also leads me to the conclusion that you don't have the extra cash for possible problems with the pregnant female or the puppies. I have heard of litters costing the breeder upwards of $2000. Not to mention the time involved to raise and socialize.

Part of your dog's behavior problems are linked to him being intact and these will only get worse as he comes to full maturity. They will also get worse as your female matures and comes into heat.

Your female will act differently after her first heat and when she reaches full maturity as well.

My female nearly died of Pyometra after her first heat. She was spayed to the tune of nearly $800, is incontinent and has behavorial problems that are most likely linked to her extremely high fever during her illness. She takes 1 or 2 cycles of drugs a year for the incontence which make her projectile vomit and cost me around $60 a cycle. When she was spayed they opened her uteris after removing it. It was black inside; it had begun to rot while it was still in her body.

Not all behavorial issues that come with intact dogs dissapate when the dogs are altered, because some are habits that begin with hormones and habits are hard to break.

My opinions about your breeding are not only due to my personal views, but based on personal experience and my (admittedly limited) knowledge and experience with training and dog behavior.
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Postby julie k » August 4th, 2006, 6:40 pm

NcPrisonguard wrote:So my boy Boomer is almost 9 months old and within the last few months has really "turned on" his dog aggressiveness. Not with dogs he knows that come over i.e. my friend's dogs (both small breed mutts both fixed) he does great with them its playtime all the time.. Then we leave the yard and walk alone.. any dog that he can even catch a glimpse of he wigs out.. lunging, barking, the whole nine yards. At a local rabies shot clinic he was so bad I had to remove him from the group. He's worse when I walk the female with us... so therefore we only do solo walks now. I live way out in the sticks and so there aren't many chances to socialize him with other dogs and now... I'd be afraid to take him somewhere with other dogs around for fear of him hurting one. I even muzzled him once when we went into PetsMart... and he still was in the "I must kill everything around me" mindset. Any thoughts? as to how to socialize him... we've had a few come to jesus discussions.. doesn't seem to help.. on choke collars or prongs.. they don't do much.. he pulls untill it hurts.. stops the lunges again.


The other listers are correct about the collar. You have to stop behavior you don't want, but corrections alone will not fix the problem. Inappropriately used corrections can elevate drive. People who are savy dog trainers are capable of using them as such.

Our breed has a genetic propensity toward this type of behavior. This is a typical example of a dog who is overadrenalized. He's getting high on the chemical flood and is now looking for triggers. He does not know any other way to deal with situations, has no coping skills, and it feels good to him to get that high.
It's the same sort of chemical rush that runners get.

It is possible to teach him relaxation techniques which will be applicable in situations where he is exposed to triggers, but it will not happen overnight. If you work diligently, it takes about 7 to 8 months.

You wrote:
"I still want him to be wary of strangers and strange animals like he is now, I just don't want him to feel like he needs to kill everything that moves."
Wary of strangers means he can't discriminate and may accidentally bite somebody totally harmless or a friend. Wary of strange animals means he might mistake a small child for a rodent.

As far as breeding goes, do you really want to supply your family and friends with the problems that come with aggression? You may be willing and able to fix it, but what if they are not? You are still responsible, not just for any pups you may produce, but to the breed, and the other people out there who love them and are trying to save them from being banned to the point of extinction.

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Postby Malli » August 5th, 2006, 4:40 am

Michelle's dog is an ideal example of many, many dogs. Hers is an extreme case, however, the monetary sum she mentioned is LOW end cost.
Michelle, I appreciate you telling Ruby's (I assume?) story, it helps make things a little more real.

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Postby bouvierz » August 5th, 2006, 8:09 pm

I had a golden that also suffered from pyometra. She almost died and cost my family $1000 dollars. I had a friend who had a male that wasn't neutered and he suffered from testicular cancer. They caught it too late and he died from it. The vet stated that in both circumstances tthe dogs would have avoided these problems if they had been altered. Im sure none of us will change your mind on breeding but i can tell you that statistically many dogs go thru at least 2 homes in their life time(not including the breeder). I would say about more than 70-75% of the pitbulls that come into our shelter are euthanized (for typical breed chacteristics by the way) Thats just my 2 cents on health problems related to intact dogs and pitbull overpopulation. Ill leave the training portion up to the experts. :wink:
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Postby mnp13 » August 6th, 2006, 11:24 pm

Malli wrote:Michelle's dog is an ideal example of many, many dogs. Hers is an extreme case, however, the monetary sum she mentioned is LOW end cost.
Michelle, I appreciate you telling Ruby's (I assume?) story, it helps make things a little more real.


Yes, that is Ruby's story. I bought her on breeding contract, and though the contract wasn't worth the paper it was printed on I had signed my name and that, to me, is binding.

She got sick after her first heat (at 18 months old) and after a long and drawn out story I eventually was able to get her spayed.
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Postby NcPrisonguard » August 8th, 2006, 1:54 am

Well just a short update... I found a local trainer who works in everything from basic obedience to protection training who is willing to assist me in socializing and training my boy Boomer, and he's reasonably priced and has a soft spot for pits, so I'm gonna take them both to him for training if all goes well with Boomer.
Dragging me over the coals about breeding opinions aside I thank the ones who attempted to help me with my question.
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Postby Marinepits » August 8th, 2006, 8:32 am

NcPrisonguard wrote:Well just a short update... I found a local trainer who works in everything from basic obedience to protection training who is willing to assist me in socializing and training my boy Boomer, and he's reasonably priced and has a soft spot for pits, so I'm gonna take them both to him for training if all goes well with Boomer.


That sounds great! I wish you the best of luck! :D
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Postby JCleve86 » August 8th, 2006, 4:42 pm

Disagreeing with you and sharing what our experience of the breed is pertaining to overpopulation and improper temperament is NOT dragging you over the coals...it's telling it to you straight. If you can't take that, don't post on a public forum dedicated to the breed. :|
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Postby greenkozi » August 8th, 2006, 7:25 pm

NcPrisonguard wrote:Well just a short update... I found a local trainer who works in everything from basic obedience to protection training who is willing to assist me in socializing and training my boy Boomer, and he's reasonably priced and has a soft spot for pits, so I'm gonna take them both to him for training if all goes well with Boomer.
Dragging me over the coals about breeding opinions aside I thank the ones who attempted to help me with my question.


i think it's awesome that you're going to do some training wiht your bully. i hope that this trainer is really familiar in pit bulls and will help you evaluate your bulldog to decide if he is stable enough to work in protection training.

i hope you don't feel that i was "dragging you over the coals"- a good breeder, like i said, has the breeds', not his, or his dogs' best interests in mind, and doesn't mind answering these types of questions.
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Postby NcPrisonguard » August 9th, 2006, 2:22 am

greenkozi wrote: i hope you don't feel that i was "dragging you over the coals"- a good breeder, like i said, has the breeds', not his, or his dogs' best interests in mind, and doesn't mind answering these types of questions.


Not anyone in general.. the dragging over the coals was more a general statement about asking one question about socializing and then getting slammed with replies about not breeding..etc etc.. But be that as it may. The trainer I am going to has alot of credintals at least and I am going to call some people who have been through him before. And he isn't doing protection work until we've gone through basic and advanced obedience then he does the test to check the courage/temperment of the dog. He has 2 APBT (even though one is one of those short fat monsters) and 1 german shephard then normal Pit and the german shepard are both protection trained which he'll give me a demonstration since I've not seen too much of it.
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Postby mnp13 » August 9th, 2006, 10:45 am

Do you know if the trainer competes at all? In what sport?
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