Dr. Hannibal & Mr. Hyde

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Postby Mind_doc » July 27th, 2006, 5:30 pm

Well I THOUGHT Hannibal was well trained on the leash. He started to
pull hard at about 7 mo old so I did some research and got a prong. He
did very well on the prong and now I can walk him for a 30-40 min walk
with hardly a tug or need for a correction.
Now for the problem.

When my wife walks our Boston with us..all bets are off. He pulls like
mad, no matter if he is in front or behind. I tried many times the quick
turn strategies outlined in the leash manners sticky. He stops for MAYBE
10 steps, then its pull city. I next tried every day, for the last 2-3
months the suggestion of "when he pulls..stop..only go forward when he
is no loner pulling." I was warned to be patient with this and I am.
Believe me....it takes 20 min to get down my 50 yard street. He just
stops when I stop and continues to pull when he feels me make any
movement. It seems like I inadvertently trained him to stop when I stop
because it had no affect on him pulling.
Mind you, this is a totally different dog when its just he and I. Whats
going on here? Obviously being around lil-sis is causing this, but how
do I get him to walk with her..the way he walks without her? I tried
going out first and slowing bringing her into the picture, but as soon
as he sees her, or even knows she is out, he pulls like a sled-dog.
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Postby Malli » July 27th, 2006, 8:47 pm

can you put him on a prong as well?

Some hard exercise before you walk him would probably help the corrections hit home a little more...

I know corrections with higher force (such as like you'd use chain training collar or a martingale) are probably out of the question because of the "bug eye" breed issues...

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Postby Mind_doc » July 27th, 2006, 10:52 pm

He (Hannibal) is already on the prong. The Boston Terrier (she), walks with no problems on a flat colllar, does not even notice her big brother breathing like Darth Vader. The BT actually was never on a choke, prong or any training collar. She just heals naturally :| So Hannibal certainly didn't pick up the bad habbit from her.
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Postby Malli » July 28th, 2006, 10:33 am

hmm... my dog did that, then we got the prong :| I'd guess you'd need a higher level of correction, like an RTC.

I'd be sure first that you are totally consistent in your corrections with the prong. Do you give corrections with it?

at first I thought you meant the Bonston was pulling, sorry!

I'm sure someone else who has had this problem will have insight. I just thank god Oscar was sensitive enough for the prong to work on him. We finally (after about 4 years) hit the end of the road on his pulling.

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Postby msvette2u » July 28th, 2006, 11:23 pm

Wish I knew HOW but I know that our younger GSD has the same "need to be alpha/first" and not only pulls but YELPS when we walk as a group...I wish you luck :)
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Postby mnp13 » August 1st, 2006, 5:29 pm

Mind_doc wrote:He (Hannibal) is already on the prong. The Boston Terrier (she), walks with no problems on a flat colllar, does not even notice her big brother breathing like Darth Vader.


What is wrong with his breathing that he "sounds like Darth Vader"?
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Postby Mind_doc » August 1st, 2006, 11:04 pm

He pulls hard enough where his breathing becomes louder.
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Postby mnp13 » August 1st, 2006, 11:46 pm

Mind_doc wrote:He pulls hard enough where his breathing becomes louder.


If he is pulling into the prong collar you are not using the collar correctly. The collar should only be tight when you are delivering a correction. Allowing your dog to pull into a prong collar could injure him.
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Postby Mind_doc » August 2nd, 2006, 10:09 am

I know I am doing something wrong. I am not "allowing him", I tried the "quick turns", and now the "stop whenever he pulls" suggestions. The "breathing like an obscene phone caller" only happens fow a few seconds/steps..then we stop..and then stop...ad nausium. I would think the prong is fitted properly. It worked like a charm when walking alone. It seems tight enough where it stays up by his ears and if i took another link out I couldnt snap it on. Could it be too tight? If the simple solution is "just walk him alone"..then I'll suck it up..but it just seems like avoiding the problem.
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Postby mnp13 » August 2nd, 2006, 12:45 pm

I wasn't attacking you, I was just making sure we were on the same page.

If you are doing the "stop and wait until he stops pulling" method, then take the prong collar off. He should not be leaning into his prong like that. Prongs are for short "trip hammer" corrections only.

The answer is definately not to walk him alone. He needs to learn that he has to respect you no matter what dog is near by. You are correct that that is avoiding the problem.

Have you tried the "quick turn" method of keeping him from pulling?

hmm... my dog did that, then we got the prong I'd guess you'd need a higher level of correction, like an RTC.


The proper level of correction can be delivered with a prong, and you want the dog to identify the correction with you and the leash.
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Postby Big_Ant » August 2nd, 2006, 12:50 pm

mnp13 wrote:
hmm... my dog did that, then we got the prong I'd guess you'd need a higher level of correction, like an RTC.


The proper level of correction can be delivered with a prong, and you want the dog to identify the correction with you and the leash.


One other thing is that an RTC is not intended as a training tool, it should only be used when the dog has the command down 100% which is not the case here, stay with the prong.

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Postby Malli » August 2nd, 2006, 12:55 pm

aren't they both proofing tools?
Why would you need the RTC then, if the dog has the command down 100%, because then there would be no corrections anyway, right? I thought the purpose of a correction is to give some consequence to a dog that understands what he is asked yet disobeys anyway?

It reads to me like his dog understands the concept, but is much more interested in pulling around his boston, for whatever reason. Did I miss something?

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Postby Big_Ant » August 2nd, 2006, 1:11 pm

I'll answer tonight, unless Michelle wants to chime in.

I don't want to rush my answer as it's a little more than just a simple forward statement.

Me and my CFO are going to the Angels game in an hour. Whoo HOo!!! I'm not an Angels fan, but UPS is putting us up in their Suite and "taking care of us", so I ain't gonna complain.

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Postby Mind_doc » August 2nd, 2006, 11:17 pm

No Problem Ant...please dont rush..I want the full explanation. Let me toss some things out that may add or help.
I never really gave a "command" to heal. Hannibal just healed, once I had him on the prong and walked him alone. Maybe I should enforce this command when we are alone and reinforce when the Bt is around?
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Postby mnp13 » August 2nd, 2006, 11:24 pm

Actually, I would encourage a good set of "handler awareness" drills. The about turn is one of them. Another is to give a hard fast snap on the leash just as the dog gets to the end of it. You can also let them get a good head of steam and then plant your feet so they self correct.

All of these things will make the dog more aware of your space, and the accepted area that the dog is allowed in.

Riggs and I have spent a good deal of time on this one, and he is much much better now. He can wander on leash, but the second he feels the leash clip lift off of his back he checks in with me.

He doesn't need to be in a strict heel, but he needs to respect my space. I think your dog would benefit from this.
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Postby JCleve86 » August 3rd, 2006, 12:00 am

I've found that my dogs are pretty good "self correctors" as Michelle said. They used to run down stairs...not fun when your wearing flip flops and attached to the other end of the leash. Put them on the prong and held on...they ran, gave themselves a good hard correction...tried maybe once or twice more, and since then, I just have to say "Ah!" if they try to get ahead of me on stairs and they back rigth up.

Definitely pop your dog (I mean pop the prong...lol) when he starts pulling...have you attached a command to it yet? Try that...I started just saying "chill" and giving them a pop...and for the most part, now just saying chill works fine...of course that command is attached to them needing to STOP doing something (pull to get to something) rather than to DO something...like heel...if that makes sense. I wonder if that would make a difference from the dogs perspective?
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Postby julie k » August 5th, 2006, 2:03 am

This is just old fashioned, real life, respectful, leadership, controlled walking; I don't know how anybody can live without it. You can live without pretty ring heeling, but it's almost impossible to get to that stage without a good foundation.

A different way of looking at it would be that the correction comes from tightening the lead, hitting the end of the lead, not the handler. The handler is always the safe spot. The pop should be enough to turn the dog back toward the handler who can then bridge/reinforce/praise that action. When you look at it this way, you wouldn't inform the dog a correction is coming.

I like to identify and name the loose leash for the dog. Then you can bridge/reinforce/praise them for having a loose leash.

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