Breed a litter and then kill half the pups???

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Postby turtle » February 1st, 2006, 12:28 pm

I happened upon this thread elsewhere:

http://www.pitbullforum.com/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0

They bred a litter and had 9 pups and plan to kill over half of them.

Is it normal practice to breed a litter and then kill half of them as puppies just because you want some more show dogs???? And how can they tell at age 2 months which ones are "show quality"?

I know pit bulls are culled for temperament problems but I have never heard of a modern day breeder who will kill puppies that young just because they might not grow up to be "show dogs"! Usually pups that are pet quality are placed into pet homes and there are folks who want a papered dog for a pet.

Pretty sick and cold hearted. I wish I had not read that thread... Makes me sick.
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Postby Maryellen » February 1st, 2006, 12:29 pm

that breeder is not a good breeder.. they should never do that, let alone post it... jerks
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Postby Maryellen » February 1st, 2006, 12:36 pm

i just read all 4 pages.... that is so sad. the breed is in such dire straights, why bother breeding at all now??
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Postby Romanwild » February 1st, 2006, 12:42 pm

I haven't read the thread yet but culling is something a responsible pit bull breeder need to do, IMO.

I have recently read some threads on other boards talking about this. My first reaction was that's terrible, just adopt them out s/n'ed.

But then I started to think it through. 3 million, that's 3,000,000 pit and pit mixes are pts every year! If you are actually a responsible breeder and follow the PBOA COE, culling should be a first choice when it comes to pet quality pets. That is now why I can say I will never breed pit bulls. I wouldn't be able to do it.

I'll go read that thread now. :wink:
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Postby panda » February 1st, 2006, 12:42 pm

:o yep, I saw that last night and felt sick to my stomach. I don't understand why it was posted in the first place. Do you ?
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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2006, 12:43 pm

Actually, I find that to be more responsible than not. If you are willing to breed, you had better be willing to cull. Working dog breeders will kill an entire litter of puppies if it doesn't turn out 'right'.

I honestly don't have any problem with it, as long as it is done humanely.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 1st, 2006, 12:46 pm

I see it as it is much easier for them to kill the litter than to place them responsibly in pet homes. Too much work to be responsible, easier to kill them after they turn a certain age. The MAIN problem I see with her posting is the post itself. WHY throw up a picture of healty wiggly puppies & them tell people they are going to be culled? That is stupid IMO. What did she expect? Pats on the back?

If she is soo worried about pet overpopulation STOP BREEDING!
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Postby pLaurent » February 1st, 2006, 12:47 pm

I am so blown away by this, I don't know what to say. With our rescue, if we have to euthanize an animal who comes in fatally injured or sick, we shed many tears and try our best to save it first.

Someone who could pick up healthy, sweet puppies that they deliberately bred, hold them while the puppy wags and licks their face and say "I'm going to kill you today since you aren't perfect in my eyes. Say goodbye!" is sub-human. And what kind of vet would do this?

This is one of the most cold-blooded things I've ever heard of.

Anyone who breeds an animal is morally and ethically obliged to make sure that animal has the best life it can possibly be provided with.
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Postby turtle » February 1st, 2006, 12:49 pm

Yes, I have no problem with putting down unsound pit bulls and pit bulls with serious health problems.

But to purposely breed a litter and get 9 pups from health tested conformation titled parents and then say you're gonna kill half of them is pretty cold.

There are people who want a pet pit bull from titled and tested stock so there is a market for pups like this. It's not like these are random bred untested puppies.
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Postby panda » February 1st, 2006, 1:13 pm

The MAIN problem I see with her posting is the post itself. WHY throw up a picture of healty wiggly puppies & them tell people they are going to be culled?


This is my issue too. I understand culling, although in this case it appears the "potential cullees" could be good pit pets. Regardless, I didn't want to know about it and especially with that cute pic of the pups.

I am a sucker for pit pups :|
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Postby babyreba » February 1st, 2006, 1:15 pm

I'm with you, PL and GF.

I can't even imagine.
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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2006, 1:35 pm

I don't like it, but I understand it. And because I don't like it, I don't breed.

Say you have this awesome stud named Max. He is a great working dog, great looking dog, great everything dog. He is titled out the wazoo, his pups are in high demand.

Say you find this awesome bitch named Ginger. She is a great working dog, great looking dog, great everything dog. She is titled out the wazoo, her pups are in high demand.

You breed them. You get 12 puppies. 6 are exactly what you want, 3 are marginal, 3 just don't cut it. (Remember, we are talking about the whole package here - looks, ability and temperament.)

Now, what to do with the 6 that aren't quite it. Well, there are plenty of people who want dogs from breeders as pets, so that they know the parents etc etc etc. So you speuter the 6 that are not ideal representations of the parents and then place them. The new owners are thrilled. The proudly show their new dogs off online and at events - and identify the parents as Max and Ginger.

So, I'm in the market for a dog. I hear about Max and Ginger. I am willing to pay TOP dollar for a dog that 'has it all'. At an event I run across someone with a sweet dog with marginal conformation, ok temperament, ok drive. I find out it is a Max/Ginger puppy. I'm not impressed. I find a puppy elsewhere.

THAT is what breeders are avoiding by not placing pet quality puppies. They don't want the less-than-perfict ones being identified with thier dog or kennel.

Puppies produced and out in the world are a breeder's resume. Would you pass out your resume with bad formatting and spelling errors? No. Why? Because it makes you look bad. Would you go to an interview in old jeans and a t-shirt? No. Why? because even if you are capable, smart and qualified, you are not representing yourself as such.

I do photography work on the side. At an event I take about 100 pictures an hour. From that, I select 25 or 30 that I really like and don't show anyone the other 70. Why? Because even though everyone takes bad pictures sometimes, you don't show people those bad pictures. NO, pictures are not living animals, but the example still holds true.

I bought Ruby from a breeder. I tell everyone who asks exactly who I got her from. Why? Because her temperament is not good, her conformation stinks and her drives are about non-existant. He produces crap and I'm happy to let people know that. I adore my dog, but she is FAR from what she should be. She is a great dog, but should have never been produced in the first place.

Please note - this is all coming from someone who can't kill a spider and gets all mushy and girly when she sees a dead bird/mouse/squrril.
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Postby babyreba » February 1st, 2006, 1:49 pm

I know what you're saying, Michelle, but I still think it's cold-blooded and incredibly disturbing.

And I wouldn't support a breeder that I discovered used the practice . . . it's just too inhuman.

Yeah, I'm a little emotional about it . . . but the idea of killing a puppy just because he's got straight stifles or a bit of an underbite gets me a little crazy.
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Postby pLaurent » February 1st, 2006, 1:56 pm

I dislike the word "Cull" just as much as I dislike the word "Euthanasia" when applied to healthy and/or young animals.

They may be pleasant sounding euphemisms and less visceral than "Kill" but killing is exactly what it is.

So, I'm in the market for a dog. I hear about Max and Ginger. I am willing to pay TOP dollar for a dog that 'has it all'. At an event I run across someone with a sweet dog with marginal conformation, ok temperament, ok drive. I find out it is a Max/Ginger puppy. I'm not impressed. I find a puppy elsewhere.


That's all true, but personally I wouldn't want a puppy from someone who ruthlessly takes 8 week old puppies and kills them - could not deal with someone like that. I would be more impressed if I found out the Max/Ginger puppy is spayed/neutered because he is pet quality and the breeder always gets wonderful homes for every dog she produces.

Yes, you can cull photographs, plants, or even guppies. Killing healthy little puppies that you raised because they aren't a financially viable "product" is to me a whole other ballgame and is repugnant in the extreme.

JMO.
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Postby Fear_the_Sheeple » February 1st, 2006, 4:15 pm

If they care so much about not enough homes for pit bull puppies, they should get involved in rescue. I do think there is a market for pet quality dogs from responsible breeders. If I ever bought a dog (not that that would really happen) I would want one from a responsible breeder, but I wouldn't want to show/work/etc.. Just a pet. Those that want "just a pet with papers" will just go to a byb rather than a shelter if there are no responsible breeder pet-quality dogs available.

To me it just sounds like they don't want to deal with the puppies. Bad temperment or health problems- euthenizing is probably the best decision. But killing them for having bad conformation? That's so sad.
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Postby AllAmericanPUP » February 1st, 2006, 5:19 pm

culling is wrong IMO

the puppies didnt ask to be born, and just because they arent "perfect" doesnt mean they should be killed

Anyone with half a brain knows that all puppies in a litter will not be perfect, there are pet quality and then there are show or working quality, so to not go to a breeder because you meet one of the pet quality dogs they have produced is just silly
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Postby Emi » February 1st, 2006, 6:12 pm

I don't know much about this person , but my problem is they are posting about what they are gonna be doing , they should of either not of posted the pups or just left it at "They are all spoken for" would of been easier on some people's mind ...

I can understand what was said about people seeing Pet quailty pups from the breeder , but they made the pups live with it . I"m sure there are people whom would like a nice pet quailty pup from a breeder.

They know that a bitch could throw any where from 4 to 12 pups or how ever many when they do the breeding. So they know the chance they are taking.

I don't know what people are thinking now a days ... :|
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Postby Miles » February 1st, 2006, 6:21 pm

I joined that forum for the sole purpose of giving that idiot a piece of my mind.. I'm awaiting activation so I have time to think of something crafty to say...

What a silly B!TCH!!!!
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Postby Patch O' Pits » February 1st, 2006, 6:58 pm

Personally I believe in spay/neutering the pet quality pups. To me that still being responsible because you take their genes out of the gene pool so to speak, but do not have to end their life to do so.
Now a pup with a crappy temperamant or one that is sickly that would be a totally different story. That is just my opinion.

There are people who want a pet pit bull from titled and tested stock so there is a market for pups like this. It's not like these are random bred untested puppies.
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To answer someone elses question I forget who sorry...I'm too lazy to read again LOL
Yes, you can tell which pups will be show quality by evaluating them at or close to 8 weeks of age. A pup at 8 weeks pretty much mimics the struture he will have as an adult. It is pretty amazing when you think about it.
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Postby Kangas Mommy » February 1st, 2006, 10:07 pm

But at 8 weeks are you gonna know exactly how this dogs temperment is going to be? I mean who in their right mind could raise a pup 2 months and then say oh your not what we want good bye and kill the sweet pup. What the hell is the point this is the most absurd think i have ever heard! Poor babies :( :( :(
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