Too late to be social?

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Postby NcPrisonguard » July 29th, 2006, 2:41 am

So my boy Boomer is almost 9 months old and within the last few months has really "turned on" his dog aggressiveness. Not with dogs he knows that come over i.e. my friend's dogs (both small breed mutts both fixed) he does great with them its playtime all the time.. Then we leave the yard and walk alone.. any dog that he can even catch a glimpse of he wigs out.. lunging, barking, the whole nine yards. At a local rabies shot clinic he was so bad I had to remove him from the group. He's worse when I walk the female with us... so therefore we only do solo walks now. I live way out in the sticks and so there aren't many chances to socialize him with other dogs and now... I'd be afraid to take him somewhere with other dogs around for fear of him hurting one. I even muzzled him once when we went into PetsMart... and he still was in the "I must kill everything around me" mindset. Any thoughts? as to how to socialize him... we've had a few come to jesus discussions.. doesn't seem to help.. on choke collars or prongs.. they don't do much.. he pulls untill it hurts.. stops the lunges again.
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Postby Malli » July 29th, 2006, 4:11 am

If you correct on a prong, it may help him improve his behavior, but not his mindset. He'll need a light leash pop (you slack the leash and the snap it back to taught and release immediately) in order to behave with the prong. Though there are a few people on the board who will tell you that the prong (leash pops and all) doesn't faze their dog.
As for socailizing him, from my perspective, its not that it's too late, its that he is the way he is. If he's truly turned on, its my understanding that there isn't much you can do about it.
My own dog is dog reactive and nervous nervous nervous about new dogs, especially on leash. He has never growled, barked or snarled, but he had some other weird behaviors and pulled like an idiot.
The prong has showed him that he does not need to act that way, but my feeling is is that he is still thinking the same thing he was before...

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Postby NcPrisonguard » July 29th, 2006, 4:53 am

Thanks.. I have tried the prong and the choke collar and it works for that split second he goes right back into his mode. Its not just dogs, its all unfamiliar animals.. My cat and kitten he couldn't care less about, they walk all over him, he sniffs their butts and they go their merry ways, my female dog he's fine with.. so I don't know if its the "pack" thinking including the cats in his pack or what. But anything around the yard.. rabbits, squirrels, possums, racoons, wild turkey, deer.. he goes after them. Maybe like you said he just is the way he is. He barks at new people and won't let them get too close to me or my wife at first, but then he wants to be a lap dog. So its certainly just the animals.
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Postby Maryellen » July 29th, 2006, 1:33 pm

you can still teach him to not be so much of a jerk in public, is it possible you are not correcting hard enough with the prong? i have also heard that some dogs get more excited with a prong on as it instigates them more. that too can be a possibility.. if you try to teach him that its not acceptable behavior, and he still reacts that way, then its just his genetics being THAT dog aggressive /animal aggressive out in publilc, and then you just leave him home.. do you have any professional trainers that are credible near you?? you can also contact Karen at West Wind Dog Training, she loves pitbulls, wrote a few books on dogs, and might be close to you i think she is in VA .... she might be able to do one on one training with you to help you get him under control ..
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Postby Maryellen » July 29th, 2006, 1:35 pm

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Postby msvette2u » July 29th, 2006, 1:46 pm

I may have missed it, is the dog neutered? If not, that may be part of the issue. :|
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Postby NcPrisonguard » July 30th, 2006, 4:00 am

I've tried every type of correcting I could think of for him.. had several come to jesus meetings with him and so far its done nothing. No he's not neutered yet, I was planning on possibly breeding him once with my female before fixing him... but still undecided. I have talked with a trainer close by that used to train police and military dogs and I plan on trying him out, but it'll have to wait until I can afford it. But I think its going to come down to him just being him. The guy I got him from said that he thought the guy who owned my dog's sire might have been fighting his dog, but he couldn't swear to it. It was an accidental breeding according to him and he was going to give the puppies away or ship them to the pound because he was worried about the "fighter blood" Any truth to that being part of a future dog's aggression?
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Postby grizzly » July 30th, 2006, 10:19 am

get him fixed and ask yourself if he is the one you really should breed to your bitch or not-if your hell bent on studding him then think about freezing a seman sample for when your bitch is ready.
i truely believe your stud should be the best all round dog for the job- when you go to place these future pups people might want to see the parents and if yor dad dog has issues, people may wonder if the pups will act the same way.

i have seen many male saints who acted just like your dog (kill all other dogs) until they were fixed.
i my early saint years there were 8 saints in my close neiborhood. if one bitch came into season the males went crazy- i mean crazy! once a couple of the males were fixed the crazy ended.
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Postby Romanwild » July 30th, 2006, 11:30 am

Nuetered or not AG can be controlled. It takes time and patience. The prong worked for me but took a while because of 2 things.

1. I allowed them to see the other dog or animal. Visual stimulus is what gets them started. If you can catch that and correct it that's usually enough. I use a 3-5 level correction [out of 10] for my dogs. I would say NO and give a quick pop. Praise them when they look away. If they start to look back I would repeat it. Now they automatically look away without me saying anything 99% of the time.

2. When they would get crazy or vocal about another dog I had to go to a 10 for Dreyfus. That finally got the message through to him. He yelped and I felt a little bad but it worked. I only had to do it twice.

You need to make sure that you have the prong fitted correctly or it won't be effective. It should sit high on the neck behind the ears and it should be tight enough to NOT spin freely. It shouldn't slip over their head either. You need to clip and unclip it to get it on and off.

You won't be able to get rid of his AG but you can teach him manners.

he was worried about the "fighter blood" Any truth to that being part of a future dog's aggression?


Sure. It's a genetic trait most of the time.

No he's not neutered yet, I was planning on possibly breeding him once with my female before fixing him... but still undecided.


No offense but what's so special about your dogs? 2 Million PTS every year in this country. We don't have enough good owners for the dogs that are here now.

Please check this out: http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=48

Really, no offense but a dog would have to be pretty awesome to be bred now a days. They should crap titles and health tests.
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Postby Patch O' Pits » July 30th, 2006, 3:07 pm

:goodStuff: Romanwild
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Postby cheekymunkee » July 30th, 2006, 4:15 pm

Romanwild wrote:Nuetered or not AG can be controlled. It takes time and patience. The prong worked for me but took a while because of 2 things.

1. I allowed them to see the other dog or animal. Visual stimulus is what gets them started. If you can catch that and correct it that's usually enough. I use a 3-5 level correction [out of 10] for my dogs. I would say NO and give a quick pop. Praise them when they look away. If they start to look back I would repeat it. Now they automatically look away without me saying anything 99% of the time.

2. When they would get crazy or vocal about another dog I had to go to a 10 for Dreyfus. That finally got the message through to him. He yelped and I felt a little bad but it worked. I only had to do it twice.

You need to make sure that you have the prong fitted correctly or it won't be effective. It should sit high on the neck behind the ears and

it should be tight enough to NOT spin freely. It shouldn't slip over their head either. You need to clip and unclip it to get it on and off.

You won't be able to get rid of his AG but you can teach him manners.

he was worried about the "fighter blood" Any truth to that being part of a future dog's aggression?


Sure. It's a genetic trait most of the time.

No he's not neutered yet, I was planning on possibly breeding him once with my female before fixing him... but still undecided.


No offense but what's so special about your dogs? 2 Million PTS every year in this country. We don't have enough good owners for the dogs that are here now.

Please check this out: http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=48

Really, no offense but a dog would have to be pretty awesome to be bred now a days. They should poop titles and health tests.


What he said!! I have a very D.A. dog that is controllable on leash, unless a dog comes up to him.
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Postby NcPrisonguard » July 31st, 2006, 2:51 am

No offense but what's so special about your dogs? 2 Million PTS every year in this country. We don't have enough good owners for the dogs that are here now.


They are my dogs and if I breed them it'll be for me and my family not to sell I'm not looking to make a buck or see the dogs end up at the pound. Thats why I said i would only breed once if its decided that I breed them at all. The female I'll get her fixed before I would get the male fixed because I hear of health problems arising in females that aren't bred and aren't spayed... dunno if its true but thats what my vet says. The male I am wary of getting him cut because I don't want the aggression level gone completely just want him to simmer down alittle. I still want him to be wary of strangers and strange animals like he is now, I just don't want him to feel like he needs to kill everything that moves.
Even though I know I am gonna catch a lashing about how APBTs don't make good guard/protection dogs get a german sherpard etc.. But so far he's very protective of the house and the family.
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Postby grizzly » July 31st, 2006, 8:01 am

fixing the male won't make him a calm baby but will take the edge off him a little(he will always protect your family-fixed or not)
unfixed females do have some risk-but rare-but there attitude doesn't change.
it sounds like your male need to take the edge off his aggession towards other dog (you said he was really crazy when walked with your female-fixing him will fix this ,fixing her will not)

nobody could talk me out of breeding my saints , but i don't have the issues you have. under stand a litter of pups could be up to 12 pups- thats alot of homes to find and work for what? what would you really benifit from your breeding?if something bad happened with one of the pups you produced( bites child or kills another dog)how will you feel then?to purposely breed dog you are responible for those pups.
i just can't see the pro's to your breeding
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Postby Malli » August 1st, 2006, 12:16 pm

I have seen Pyometras (infection of the uterus) in about 10 dogs at my work (a Vet. ER), I asked when I saw a dog with what appeared to be tumors in her teets what it was. The doctor explained to me that a female that has been through at least one heat is has a 25% chance of developing these tumors.
If you do decide to breed her, please do so wisely and spay her promptly, Pyometras normally occur in older dogs and are expensive, horrible for the dog, and the older the animal the higher the risk with a general anesthetic (wich can be avoided if the dog is spayed and the uterus removed).

Just an FYI

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Postby grizzly » August 1st, 2006, 7:58 pm

just past may one of the greatest weight pulling dogs died to pyometras( and from what i know by the time you realize somethings wrong its too late)
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Postby Malli » August 2nd, 2006, 1:35 am

Not always, the dogs I have seen that had the surgery recovered....
But sometimes when the infection is found so are other conditions (like liver or kidney issues, heart probs. etc...) That can make the surgery much more of a risk and complicate things .....

Anyway, its just seems like such an easy thing to avoid, and there are so many benefits that come with a spay, or at least a spay earlier in life...

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Postby NcPrisonguard » August 2nd, 2006, 4:10 am

grizzly wrote: nobody could talk me out of breeding my saints , but i don't have the issues you have. under stand a litter of pups could be up to 12 pups- thats alot of homes to find and work for what? what would you really benifit from your breeding?if something bad happened with one of the pups you produced( bites child or kills another dog)how will you feel then?to purposely breed dog you are responible for those pups.
i just can't see the pro's to your breeding


Well I have 2 acres of land so I have enough room for "X" amount of dogs I have the ability to feed and house the ones I could not find good homes for which would most likely be with friends and family so I would have the ability to take back any that were "problem pups" I am not saying that I am for sure going to breed them, and if I decide not to I will have them both fixed.
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Postby mnp13 » August 2nd, 2006, 12:52 pm

Your dog is only beginning to come into his full hormones, and the behaviors may get worse as he continues to mature. I'd start with neutering him, it's not going to "fix" any of the problems, but it should take some of the edge off.

If your family and friends want Pit Bulls, there are thousands dieing at shelters every day.

When your female goes into heat, he will probably get much worse actually.

Please do not muzzle your dog. Muzzles increase aggression, not fix it. Bringing your dog to a store in a muzzle not only looks bad for the breed, but it will make your dog even more defensive because it knows it can't defend itself.
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Postby NcPrisonguard » August 2nd, 2006, 11:55 pm

mnp13 wrote:Please do not muzzle your dog. Muzzles increase aggression, not fix it. Bringing your dog to a store in a muzzle not only looks bad for the breed, but it will make your dog even more defensive because it knows it can't defend itself.


Not responding about breeding or not, or getting rescue dogs or not..because I am to each his own kind of person, if you don't want to breed or have the breed bred then ok.. if someone wants to breed for the right purposes and is able to care, house, and feed 'X' numbers of dogs then I have no problem with that either.... Now about not muzzling.

I have to take him to Petsmart to the vet there because my wife (against my wishes) signed a year long contract with them for both of our dogs and got them on this wellness plan that is offered. There is no waiting room for clients you all just sit on a bench together with your dogs and wait your turn.. I stand away from the group with Boomer and wait, but it never fails that people with their dogs approach us no matter the amount of aggression he is showing.. and I get these awful looks from the Petsmart people.. so I muzzle him to keep him from grabbing someone's dog that gets too close. Another suggestion as to how I can walk him around these other dogs and keep them safe? Next month if all goes as planned I am taking him to a professional trainer nearby that is experienced in police and military dog training and he's going to work with us.
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Postby mnp13 » August 3rd, 2006, 9:08 am

I would keep him in the car until it is your turn, then go out and get him. Riggs is dog aggressive and this is my procedure at the vet:

I go in and wait until we are called. I then announce to the room that I am getting my dog and that he is dog aggressive. When I come back in, I look before I walk into the waiting room and make sure people have their animals under control. Then I get though the waiting room as fast as possible with him glued to my leg. I do the reverse when the exam is done.
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