Some aggression issues with Doodle...

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby a-bull » July 20th, 2006, 4:25 pm

mnp13 wrote:
a-bull wrote:"Hanging" a puppy or dog in any fashion, under any circumstances, be it successful or not, is not good training.


"good training" is very very subjective.


Really?

Let me try that again then~

Hanging a puppy or dog in any fashion, under any circumstances, be it successful or not, is inappropriate.

If "inappropriate" is subjective, then I will further suggest that offering such ideas regarding a five month old rescue puppy on a forum in cyberspace is irresponsible.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby Marinepits » July 20th, 2006, 4:49 pm

May I have some clarification, please?

Are we discussing taking the dog by the collar and picking it up so JUST the front feet are off the ground, or ALL four feet are off the ground?

Thanks!
Never make someone a priority in your life when that someone treats you like an option.
User avatar
Marinepits
Proud Infidel
 
Posts: 15621
Location: New England

Postby cheekymunkee » July 20th, 2006, 4:51 pm

When I grabbed Booger it was all four feet, he was in the air less than 15 seconds. Long enough for me to jerk him up, yell at him, give him a shake & set him back down. He wasn't dangling, he wasn't hung, he was in the air and back on the ground before he knew what hit him.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 5:00 pm

My point was that there are people who think teaching a dog behaviors using an e-collar is "good training". People who think that forced retreives are "good training". People who think anything other than clickers and love is "bad training".

You name the training style and I can find people who think it is the product of the Devil and people who think it is God's gift.

In my opinion, picking up a dog by its collar to teach it that handler aggression is not acceptable is not a bad thing. The source of the handler aggression is debateable in this instance, but it's there now and needs to be dealt with. She picked him up once, and that may be the only time she needs to do it, especially if she works to make her training clearer to the dog.

Regarding this senario, Chris made a very good point - this behavior seems to have been caused by handler error, not puppy error. Both the handler and the puppy need training. (and that's not a slam, I need plenty of handler training!)
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 5:06 pm

Marinepits wrote:Are we discussing taking the dog by the collar and picking it up so JUST the front feet are off the ground, or ALL four feet are off the ground?


I've never needed more than the front feet with Ruby. We do "the march" when she gets out of the yard (over the 6 foot fence, as she is afraid of going over the chain link). The last time I found her out of the yard, I bent over, grabbed her collar, stood up and walked home. That left her front feet about 4 inches off the ground.

Was it pleasant for her? Nope. Do I care? Nope. Has she gone over the fence since? Nope.

It depends on the dog, the offense, the situation, etc etc etc.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby a-bull » July 20th, 2006, 6:21 pm

mnp13 wrote:My point was that there are people who think teaching a dog behaviors using an e-collar is "good training". People who think that forced retreives are "good training". People who think anything other than clickers and love is "bad training".

You name the training style and I can find people who think it is the product of the Devil and people who think it is God's gift.

In my opinion, picking up a dog by its collar to teach it that handler aggression is not acceptable is not a bad thing. The source of the handler aggression is debateable in this instance, but it's there now and needs to be dealt with. She picked him up once, and that may be the only time she needs to do it, especially if she works to make her training clearer to the dog.

Regarding this senario, Chris made a very good point - this behavior seems to have been caused by handler error, not puppy error. Both the handler and the puppy need training. (and that's not a slam, I need plenty of handler training!)


Well, I guess we'll 'see' whether "picking up a dog by its collar to teach it that handler aggression is not acceptable" works out. So far she said he tried to bite her when she did it. Seems to me like she got an expected response to her actions.

The plain fact of the matter is any advice given in this thread short of basic training and/or a behavior assessment of a five month old rescue puppy with a mystified owner, is inappropriate at best.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby Magnolia618 » July 20th, 2006, 7:00 pm

Marinepits wrote:May I have some clarification, please?

Are we discussing taking the dog by the collar and picking it up so JUST the front feet are off the ground, or ALL four feet are off the ground?

Thanks!


I was talking about just the front feet.
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby a-bull » July 20th, 2006, 7:33 pm

Here are some very clear and concise suggestions for training a puppy:


1. Create a foundation of training in your puppy. Instead of punishing a puppy for puppy crimes, train for the behavior you desire. Get the help of a class instructor, private trainer or behavior specialist to learn what behaviors your puppy needs to learn (also see Training), and how to help your puppy learn them.

Make training fun for the puppy, and put in the practice time every day. Then when your puppy misbehaves, you can immediately switch into one of the trained behaviors and have the puppy doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing. With consistent practice, your puppy will eventually develop the habit of doing the desired behavior instead of the undesired one. That’s training at its best.

2. Teach your puppy to give you things, rather than manhandlingor cornering a frightened dog. When pups steal human possessions and run off to get the people to engage in a chasing game, most people instinctively do the wrong thing and chase the pup. The pup is playing, but the people get angry about damage to possessions, and take their anger out on the pup.

Soon the pup becomes either fearful or aggressive in self-protection when cornered by humans, and more and more situations cause that trapped feeling. At the same time, the people are missing an easy chance to build the pup’s retrieving response. Encourage the pup to bring the item to you by running the other way, and then trade the pup something nice for the item. Before you know it, you’ll have a dog who retrieves to you. And you’ll have fun in the process.

3. Whenever you need to get your pup to do something, use your voice and body language to give directions. Don’t manhandle the pup. Make your touch a positive thing.

You want your pup to trust the touch of humans and to relax when touched. This is not the instinctive response of a dog or even of a person—the instinctive response to touch is defensive. A positive response to touch is learned. It takes a lot of good touches to develop this positive response, and it also requires protecting the pup from painful or frightening touches.

4. Instead of grabbing, jerking, and jumping around with your puppy, slow things down so the dog can stop and think. Don’t let anyone encourage your puppy to put teeth on human skin. Teach everyone to treat the puppy in a way that will build your puppy’s trust in people and safe responses to them.

5. Don’t let people pet the puppy when the pup is jumping up on them. Everyone needs to “freeze actionâ€
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby msvette2u » July 20th, 2006, 7:57 pm

If "inappropriate" is subjective, then I will further suggest that offering such ideas regarding a five month old rescue puppy on a forum in cyberspace is irresponsible.


:clap:

I think this owner needs the advice of a REAL LIVE PERSON in a REAL LIVE PROFESSIONAL setting!

eta: I had a similar situation with a diff. breed of dog, my deaf Aussie-she was trying to bite me when we took her to her kennel/run to put her in while we were gone. I did the "hang" type walk - and it made her worse! I knew I was going to get bitten. Enough of that - I took a biscuit and showed her, took it to the kennel and tossed it in. Problem solved. Now she goes in without a biscuit being thrown in. Had I continued manhandling and threats/intimidation, I'd have been bitten - I prefer not setting a dog up to fail, but that's just me :|
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby juniper8204 » July 20th, 2006, 8:09 pm

Ok...LOTS to reply to...

Babyreba was right about the raised lip...he was not grumbling. And I agree with Babyreba about not looking forward to ever having to hang a dog again...not a fun experience. Demo Dick warned me that if I "hung" Doodle, he may try to bite me, so I was prepared.

And to answer mnp13's questions about the details of the situation--I was working him with treats and excited verbal praise when he got it right. I've got the Science Diet Jerky treats...he loves those. I did not use leash corrections...the trainer that I talked to suggested not to do that for now. I told him "no" when he wouldn't go to the down position. Yes, he growled at me when I told him "down", but I was also incorporating hand signals...I don't know if that could be part of the problem? :| When he tried to bite me, his front feet were already in the air, and he was trying to reach around and get to my hand, as it was close to where the leash and collar meet. He was in a flat buckle collar when I did this.

I did not take all four feet off the ground. It was only his front feet.

I think I answered all the questions??? If I didn't...sorry. I just got home from work a little bit ago, and my brain's buzzing. It's getting towards the end of the week and the animal hospital was really busy today.

Jen
Jen
Mommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!
User avatar
juniper8204
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 366
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 8:27 pm

juniper8204 wrote:And to answer mnp13's questions about the details of the situation--I was working him with treats and excited verbal praise when he got it right. I've got the Science Diet Jerky treats...he loves those. I did not use leash corrections...the trainer that I talked to suggested not to do that for now. I told him "no" when he wouldn't go to the down position.


ok. What were you telling him "no" for? I'm just trying to lead you into thinking about it, I'm not challenging. You said "down" he didn't down, you said "no". No... to what? Not downing? Growling? I'd assume he was sitting when you said down, so were you saying no to sitting? Sound confusing? I'm guessing your dog was confused as well.

Another question - in your initial post, when you said "no" did you jerk the leash?
Several rounds of this, and I popped the leash to get his attention
I would venture a guess that "no" accompanied the leash pops that you delivered when he wouldn't go pee.
A second leash tug and he growled and came up the leash at me.


Your throughally confused puppy is trying to let you know that you are being throughally unclear and unfair. You told him down, then you said no. And now in your puppy's head "oh crap, she said 'no', now she's gonna yank on my neck. I hate yanking on my neck. I don't know what she wants me to do, then she gets mad at me for not doing it. Maybe I'll just let her know that she is confusing me and that I don't want to be yanked on for being confused" *growl*

You said "down" and he didn't "get it" and probably guessed he was on his way to being punished for whatever it is he didn't do. I'd probably growl at you as well.

As for the snapping, I'm sure he didn't like the feeling of having his feet off the ground and was trying to get you to put him down. did he calm down when snapping at you didn't work?

Vette: handling fear/wariness of the crate is a completely different issue than handler aggression. If your dog is desparately fighting you to prevent you from putting it in a crate, punishing it for acting out in its fear will only make that fear worse. Had she connected with you, it would have been handler error, not dog error.

You solved that problem by giving the dog a treat in the kennel so that it would understand that the kennel is a good place. That solution doesn't apply here.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby msvette2u » July 20th, 2006, 11:30 pm

Vette: handling fear/wariness of the crate is a completely different issue than handler aggression. If your dog is desparately fighting you to prevent you from putting it in a crate, punishing it for acting out in its fear will only make that fear worse. Had she connected with you, it would have been handler error, not dog error.


Uh uh it wasn't like that. It's an outdoor kennel/run and she didn't want to go in it because, well, gosh she can't have her freedom. She was being a brat and knew nipping at us or biting would make us "quit" in her opinion. I just ended up wanting to do it a "gentler" way is all. The treats worked.
She's not afraid of crates or the outdoor run. She DOES know it means loss of freedom. Besides, she'd gone in there before with no issues. When she realized that once in there she was confined, she decided she didn't want any part of it.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby rockermom » July 21st, 2006, 8:10 am

I dont know if this will help but I just noticed a similar problem I had. She said she pointed her finger as a hand signal for down. I had been tought to use a flat hand bringing it from up do down. However I had tought Rocky a new trick. Play Dead. Which started just by saying play dead. Someone said it would be cooler if I pointed my finger like a gun. Well I did that and he acted really weird. He barked air snapped from a distance and ran and seemed really scared of me. took a while to get him to come to me. I had noticed him doing this behavior a couple of times when my husband pointed to tell him to go lay down and stop playing but I thought he was playing and trying to still nip. However the way he acted when I did pointing my finger like a gun he seemed really bothered by it. I figured it had something to do with is past home which he lived in from whenever he was taken from his mom untill he was put in a shelter at about 3 1/2 months old. I got him at 4 months and this happened when he was about 8 mos old or later. So I stopped trying to teach him this hand signal and would put a treat in my hand point my finger like that and let him sniff it and he began to learn my pointing hand was ok. Now he does the trick like a champ. Although still sometimes he has the look of I dont like when you point at me like that. Im sure someone traumatized him by yelling and pointing maybe even more. Possibly this other pup had some bad experience too. Maybe someone pointed at him and yelled alot. Rocky still can carry some of his shelter life and past life issues around. Even though he was so young. Maybe this pup is doing similar and needs to learn she is not going to hurt him.
User avatar
rockermom
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1085

Postby Magnolia618 » July 21st, 2006, 1:28 pm

Different hand signals for different dogs :|

In my house a snap above their head is a sit. Pointing to the ground is down. Flat hand infront of their face is stay.
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby rockermom » July 21st, 2006, 2:09 pm

different hand signals I understand. But her dog also came from rescue Like Rocky came from shelter. Maybe finger pointing is bad to her dog as it is to Rocky. Or harsh yelling. Not knowing what dog has been through.
User avatar
rockermom
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1085

Postby Magnolia618 » July 21st, 2006, 6:45 pm

In that case, I would still use the finger pointing to get her to realize that it isnt a bad thing. No dog should freak out if you point at them :|
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby rockermom » July 21st, 2006, 9:20 pm

Which is why I continued to point finger with a treat in my hand showing Rocky it was a good thing. Im just wondering if the dog could be responding to a bad experience?
User avatar
rockermom
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1085

Postby mnp13 » July 21st, 2006, 11:02 pm

rockermom wrote:Im just wondering if the dog could be responding to a bad experience?


Yes, he is. From the dog's point of view, he's being corrected for not obeying commands that he most liekly does not understand at all.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Previous

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]

cron