Some aggression issues with Doodle...

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby JCleve86 » July 18th, 2006, 11:44 pm

Michelle, do you still use a prong? E-collar?
JCleve86
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 465
Location: Puyallup, WA

Postby rockermom » July 19th, 2006, 7:50 am

DemoDick wrote:
In my case leash corrections were not as effective (rebelling) as food rewards for doing the right thing.


We're not talking about refusing to down. We're talking about openly challenging the handler. I too use rewards throughout training. But we're not talking about training. We're talking about respect. Respect is gained throught the consistent enforcement of boundaries. It sounds like this dog (1) doesn't know where the boundaries are or (2) knows and is pushing them. In either case he needs a wake up call for growling at the handler. Cookies aren't going to cut it.

Demo Dick


I realize what you are saying. Everyting all is saying makes sense to me. However myself as a beginner I probably would try everything everyone said to try, thinking they know better than I do. I was just saying what worked for me and how everyone has different views of the best way. In no way do I think anyone should do what worked for me. They dont know my dog. My first trainer who used harsher methods believed in not starting with a prong. He believed in starting with a martingale w/chain or choke depending on the dog. Leaving the prong as your level 10 correction. His thoughts were if you start with a prong your at your top level correction with no where else to go. It is an interesting concept. You are absolutely right cookies wont cut it. I was just wondering if she is only using corrections. When I started training there was no treats at all only corrections. Well we used treats only once to teach the down. I used that method cause thats what the trainer did and I did not know any better.
User avatar
rockermom
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1085

Postby mnp13 » July 19th, 2006, 9:21 am

JCleve86 wrote:Michelle, do you still use a prong? E-collar?


on which dog?

I've gone to only flat with Riggs, Ruby only listens when she has a prong or e-collar on because she is collar smart and I haven't fixed that yet.

I'm not anti either of them, just not using them right now.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Chris Fraize » July 19th, 2006, 4:36 pm

A five month old puppy that can poop on command? Let me just do the math here. You got the puppy mid-June so you've had it for about 4 weeks? I have been a professional trainer for 16 years and I couldn't do this. Not to mention the fact that if the dog doesn't have to go to the bathroom how can it comply with the command? Teaching a puppy in three months to poop on command with corrections? That's asking a lot of a very young puppy. What it sounds like is the owner not understanding training and dog behavior and pushing a puppy well beyond it's level of understanding. The dog tried to tell the owner that the correction was either too severe or not understood by objecting (growling, snapping, whatever). This isn't bad wiring, it's just simply bad training and bad understanding of dog behavior. Good dogs often correct their handlers when their handlers are unfair. Sounds like a good dog to me. Just my two cents but the conversation about the GL, hanging them up, and all the other suggestions are focussed on the dog, and it sounds like this problem is on the owner, who in this case is teaching the dog to be handler sharp (aggressive to handler). Again, just my two cents.

Safe Training,
Chris Fraize
Chris Fraize
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 178
Location: Acton, Maine

Postby rockermom » July 19th, 2006, 8:25 pm

Good thoughts Chris.
User avatar
rockermom
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1085

Postby a-bull » July 19th, 2006, 9:25 pm

Chris Fraize wrote:A five month old puppy that can poop on command? Let me just do the math here. You got the puppy mid-June so you've had it for about 4 weeks? I have been a professional trainer for 16 years and I couldn't do this. Not to mention the fact that if the dog doesn't have to go to the bathroom how can it comply with the command? Teaching a puppy in three months to poop on command with corrections? That's asking a lot of a very young puppy. What it sounds like is the owner not understanding training and dog behavior and pushing a puppy well beyond it's level of understanding. The dog tried to tell the owner that the correction was either too severe or not understood by objecting (growling, snapping, whatever). This isn't bad wiring, it's just simply bad training and bad understanding of dog behavior. Good dogs often correct their handlers when their handlers are unfair. Sounds like a good dog to me. Just my two cents but the conversation about the GL, hanging them up, and all the other suggestions are focussed on the dog, and it sounds like this problem is on the owner, who in this case is teaching the dog to be handler sharp (aggressive to handler). Again, just my two cents.

Safe Training,
Chris Fraize


I absolutely agree.

Thanks so much for saying this better than I ever could.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby juniper8204 » July 20th, 2006, 10:16 am

mnp13 wrote:My first question - what experience does your vet have with training? A gentle leader is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. "Dog Prozac" is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. Vets are medical doctors, unless this vet has actual training experience (and ask for credentials) I would speak to a trainer. I'm assuming you don't ask your medical doctor for advice on what training regimine you should do for bicycle riding?

2. Demo did not say "strangle the dog". Enough theatrics. I've done "the march" with Ruby more than once, it doesn't injure her, or really even hurt her. Grab the collar, stand up and walk. It's uncomfortable, but it gets the point across quite clearly.


OK...it's been a while since I posted, but I have another update on Doodle. He was neutered on Monday, and is doing fine in that aspect. I've been in contact with a professional, and mentioned the "hanging" technique. She recommended that I try it if he growls at me again. Soooo, the other day, I was working on his sit, down and stay with no leash corrections, and when I told him down, he just looked at me like I had three heads. I told him no, and repeated the command. He growled at me, and I hung him as was explained by Demo Dick and the trainer. I felt bad afterwards because it scared both him and me. He tried to bite my hand when I pulled the leash up, but soon settled down. Since then, he has been fine. No signs of aggression whatsoever. As someone said in an earlier post, it was a "come to Jesus moment." I think that's how it was described. But anyway, I believe it was a permanent fix. I hope so at least.

The trainer also said hold off on using the Gentle Leader, and see if he'll change his outlook on things by just using the "hanging." So, I didn't go out and buy one, which I'm glad seeing as how they're expensive and it would've been a waste of money.

I told my vet that I wanted to hold off on using the Clomicalm a.k.a. doggie Prozac. I wanted to see how he did with the trainer's suggestions, and so far he's doing fine without the meds.

Thanks for all the feedback on addressing Doodle's issues. I think we've made a turn for the better.

Jen
Jen
Mommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!
User avatar
juniper8204
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 366
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 10:58 am

how long have you been training the dog to "down"?
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby babyreba » July 20th, 2006, 10:59 am

well that sounds like good news!
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby concreterose » July 20th, 2006, 11:10 am

How do you KNOW that the puppy truly understands what down means?
How long have you been working on the behavior, how is your timing on positive reinforcement, have you worked with the puppy in different scenarios so that he's learned to generalize the behavior. In some cases perhaps hanging is appropriate, but I am of the firm belief that before you take drastic measures as a trainer, you should step back and evaluate yourself first. Is there anything in your method that needs to be refined or reworked?

I have found that in my personal training experiences, it was usually me that was making an error in training, not the dog, when things weren't going right. Not saying that this is the case in this situation because I'm not there, but definitely something to think about.
User avatar
concreterose
Loyally Bully
 
Posts: 719

Postby juniper8204 » July 20th, 2006, 11:40 am

mnp13 wrote:how long have you been training the dog to "down"?


Since the first day I got him on June 14th. He is a very bright dog, and understood the command by the next day. I started off using treats, and by the end of the next day, he was sitting and laying down without using them at all. As far as pos. reinforcement, I make a huge deal out of doing something good with excited verbal and physical praise and treats. I'm trying to get him to catch treats in the air, now...it's funny to watch him try and catch them. His coordination isn't quite ready for catching them yet, I guess...he can be a bit clumsy sometimes with his legs growing so long so fast. Since the beginning, I've incorporated hand signals with the verbal command, and now, all I have to do is bring my hand up for him to sit and to point to the ground for him to lay down. I've worked him with the commands at friends' houses around new people, new dogs and such. We're working on staying calm around new people and new situations, and he is doing really well...very fast learner. Just the other day, he realized that if he goes to the door and whines or scratches on it, he gets taken out. I haven't worked with him at all about scratching on the door; he came up with that one all by himself...I'm tellin' ya--he's one of the smartest dogs I've ever seen.
Jen
Mommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!
User avatar
juniper8204
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 366
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 12:28 pm

After only five weeks, I can just about guarentee you that the dog does not "know" down. From your descriptions, he does sound very bright, but I think you are going too far too fast.

I agree with punishing him for growling at you, however, I think Chris has a point - the dog is confused.

Also, is he growling or grumbling?
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby cheekymunkee » July 20th, 2006, 12:40 pm

Also, is he growling or grumbling?


Good question & something you should look into. Booger was a grumbler, Justice is too. In fact she woo woos, grumbles, pisses & moans all the time. She is very vocal & makes some crazy sounds sometimes that could sound aggressive if you don't know her. Last night I was blowing raspberries on her tummy, she was upside down, hanging her head off the side of the bed & would grumble when I blew her tummy. She *sounded like she was growling but she wasn't. I have heard her growl when we play tug & while it sounded similar there was a difference in the sound.....it wasn't as deep as a growl but it was "rumbleing" like a growl. Does that make any sense? :?
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby Magnolia618 » July 20th, 2006, 12:46 pm

It totally makes sense. I was about to say the same thing. Both Maggie and Trey grumble. Maggie growls when you play with her. It really just depends on what the growl/grumble means :|
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby babyreba » July 20th, 2006, 1:12 pm

when a dog raises its lip and growls, that's usually not a grumble. the dog also tried to bite her when she hung him, which tells me that he was more than likely growling and not grumbling.

reba grumbles all the time, every day and she never raises a lip or glares at me when she does it.

from the description, this dog was acting out and growling.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 20th, 2006, 1:19 pm

I'm not sure if it can be counted as aggression when the dog tried to bite while being hung - I would think survival instinct would kick in. I could be wrong...
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby babyreba » July 20th, 2006, 1:38 pm

i'm not saying that trying to bite while being hung counts against the dog, but i do think that it sounds like the dog was growling--not grumbling or vocalizing--as the OP described it. couple that with the fact that the dog did try to bite when being hung, and i'd guess that the dog is indeed expressing challenges to the handler, not just expressing some desire to make a lil' noise.

i've hung dogs before. it was part of training when i was younger, it was what i was taught to do when a dog was disrespecting the handler . . . that was about 15 years ago when i was 18 and handling my first dog by myself (GSD). many dogs do not try to bite when they are "hung," they struggle and gasp a bit and then stop struggling and submit. then you let them down.

some do, some don't, and it depends on the dog and the handler and the relationship and a bunch of other factors.

for the record, hanging a dog is not something i've done in about 5 years, and it's not something i look forward to having to do again.
User avatar
babyreba
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1132

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 1:44 pm

I keep reading and re-reading the descriptions of what's going on, and it's not adding up for me. I'm not saying anyone is "lieing" but I'm not getting what's going on.

I'm going to pick this apart, to try and get some clarity

Soooo, the other day, I was working on his sit, down and stay with no leash corrections, and when I told him down, he just looked at me like I had three heads.


How were you working on the commands? Using food or a toy for motivation? You said "down", and he didn't do anything, did you use a toy or food to lure him to the position or did you jerk his collar?

I told him no,


You told him "no" for what?

and repeated the command. He growled at me


He growled at you when you said "down"? What specifically did you do just before he growled?

and I hung him as was explained by Demo Dick and the trainer. I felt bad afterwards because it scared both him and me. He tried to bite my hand when I pulled the leash up, but soon settled down.


You'll need to expalin the biting part, I can't "see" it. Did you reach for his leash and that is what caused the growl and then the punishment?

Thanks.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby a-bull » July 20th, 2006, 3:07 pm

I still agree with Chris.

The PUPPY is receiving mixed messages and is responding.

"Hanging" a puppy or dog in any fashion, under any circumstances, be it successful or not, is not good training.

Go back and read Chris' post again.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby mnp13 » July 20th, 2006, 3:16 pm

a-bull wrote:"Hanging" a puppy or dog in any fashion, under any circumstances, be it successful or not, is not good training.


"good training" is very very subjective.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

PreviousNext

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot]