Some aggression issues with Doodle...

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Postby rockermom » July 15th, 2006, 12:36 pm

a-bull wrote:So a five month old puppy wants to sniff something rather than "go pee" on command, so he gets a command and a collar pop for that, ignores you further, so he gets a collar pop for ignoring you, gives you what you perceive to be a "nasty look", gets another pop for that and you evoke a growl.

A) How on earth do you expect him to know what you want from him, and;

B) Shouldn't the first growl have been an indication that what you're doing isn't working?


Hanging him, euthanizing him . . . my gawd . . . what the heck ever happened to training??! This is a five month old puppy!

Nobody on here even knows if this person is accuarately reading this situation, and in my opinion, basic puppy training probably would have worked out alot better for you than collar popping a five month old puppy for not going pee on command.

Ya know, there are alot of young people that frequent these boards for dog training info. and advice, and even adults unsure of how to teach basic training. Tossing out suggestions of euthaninzation, hanging dogs, etc. just is not appropriate. In this case we're talking about a five month old puppy, a rescue puppy---which means it may not even be a pitbull mix for all she knows, and an interpretation of a situation presented on a forum that may be accurate or not.


I was staying out of this cause Im no dog expert but this sounds like the best post Ive seen here so far. since I am one of those who comes mainly for advice on training. I was thinking a prong collar is probably not necessary on 5 mos old puppy? Maybe it hurts him when he is getting popped? Using it to make him do business ahhh I dont know I wouldnt. Baby in the house. Putting an infant in the picture makes a totally different situation. Be careful with that! I sure would not allow puppy anywhere near baby even without the growling.
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Postby a-bull » July 15th, 2006, 12:49 pm

. . . and lastly, I OWN a dog that growled for various reasons as a puppy and a young dog. He is now a fantastic, joyful, well-behaved adult dog that not only wouldn't hurt a flea, but was more than worthy of life.
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Postby juniper8204 » July 15th, 2006, 3:06 pm

a-bull wrote:So a five month old puppy wants to sniff something rather than "go pee" on command, so he gets a command and a collar pop for that, ignores you further, so he gets a collar pop for ignoring you, gives you what you perceive to be a "nasty look", gets another pop for that and you evoke a growl.

A) How on earth do you expect him to know what you want from him, and;

B) Shouldn't the first growl have been an indication that what you're doing isn't working?


Hanging him, euthanizing him . . . my gawd . . . what the heck ever happened to training??! This is a five month old puppy!

Nobody on here even knows if this person is accuarately reading this situation, and in my opinion, basic puppy training probably would have worked out alot better for you than collar popping a five month old puppy for not going pee on command.

Ya know, there are alot of young people that frequent these boards for dog training info. and advice, and even adults unsure of how to teach basic training. Tossing out suggestions of euthaninzation, hanging dogs, etc. just is not appropriate. In this case we're talking about a five month old puppy, a rescue puppy---which means it may not even be a pitbull mix for all she knows, and an interpretation of a situation presented on a forum that may be accurate or not.


In my first post, I mentioned that Doodle knows his command. I never said that I never let him sniff around. I give him a chance to go, and he has plenty of time to play during the day. And I don't collar pop him on the very first command. He only gets that when he's not doing what he's supposed to be doing. He knows exactly what I want from him because he knows his command. I am not going to punish a dog for not knowing what I want from them. And I do not put the prong collar on when I take him out to do his business. I only put it on for walks and when he is chasing the cats in the house. I do not agree with the hanging method, which is why I haven't done it...cruel techniques provide bad behavior. I am not giving up on him...euthanizing him is a VERY LAST resort. Just thinking about it tears me up. I just had to put down a dog in April because of cancer. Do you think I want to go through that again??? And don't judge me because of my age. Just because I'm 24 doesn't mean that I can't accurately read a dog. I've been around dogs my entire life, not to mention that I've worked at animal hospitals for five years. I know what I'm doing when it comes to caring for my animals. I know the difference between play biting and outright aggression. I know the difference between a dog wanting to be a jackass and a frustrated dog. By no means am I trying to be rude to anyone, but I really don't appreciate anyone attacking my approach to things, either. I am a responsible adult and pet owner.

Anyway...that said, I have an update on Doodle. I talked with his vet, and she said it's definitely a good idea to get him neutered as soon as possible; I have had an appt. to get him neutered for a week...he goes on Monday. She suggested trying a Halti/Gentle Leader and also giving him some Clomicalm, which she says has helped a great many dogs she's seen that show aggression. It's not a permanent thing, but hopefully it will help. She did mention that there is a possibility that I may have to euthanize him, but not to consider it until she's had a look at him. One of her majors in college was canine behavior, so she is my vet/animal behaviorist.

Again, I love this dog dearly. I don't want to put him down. I've already lost a dog this year, and I never want to go through that again. I'm sorry if I have come across as rude, but it is just my reaction when I feel someone is making presumptions about me. I have to have a chance to stand up for myself. Anyone who knows me will tell you how passionate I am about my animals. I did not post my message to be downsized. I posted it because I honestly need help with this situation.

Thank you, and I will step down from my soap box now. :smile:

Jen
Last edited by juniper8204 on July 15th, 2006, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Maryellen » July 15th, 2006, 4:27 pm

being not neutered could be part of the problem too. maybe do complete nilif with no furniture privileges for now? i would also not leash correct him if he isnt going potty right away, puppies tend to have wandering minds. maybe get him on a schedule if he is not on one already..

i hope you dont think that i meant for you to euth him, i re read my posts and i dont think i put that anywhere in it.. please correct me if i am wrong..
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Postby juniper8204 » July 15th, 2006, 4:52 pm

No, Maryellen, I didn't take it as you suggesting euth. But, I can't deny that if this goes on and on and nothing is changing or getting worse, that it is a possibility that I have to come to terms with. But, good news. Nothing bad has happened today, so maybe we're making progress.

I will also try banning all "furniture privileges" for a while as you suggested. Spending some time on some piled up blankets instead of the bed/couch is not going to hurt him in the least! Of course, he's going to think I'm evil! :twisted:
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Postby Maryellen » July 15th, 2006, 5:01 pm

try no furniture/bed privileges, maybe some more exercise? physical and mental maybe??? maybe making him work for everything and getting him neutered now might help.. he could be just a snot..
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Postby rockermom » July 15th, 2006, 5:08 pm

WHen I quoted what I thought was the best post. I had no idea of your age nor do I think 24 is too young to own a dog. I think ABull meant that people should not be posting to recomment PTS a dog without actually seeing the behaviors. I thinki she meant SOmetimes very young people kids if you will post on the boards. I think your vet is on the right track with suggesting a halti or gentle leader. However I have read some conflicting info on haltis. Also might want to consider a gentle chest harness. I used this with my dog and it virtually stopped the pulling. I now use a martingale for regular walks but for a long walk or going into public situations I use the gentle leader chest harness. When I started training the trainer put a prong as a level 10 source of correction to be used when the other options have failed. SO in that training class a rope slip type choke collar worked well for leash corrections. My dog did not do well with leash corrections. He began to dislike the trainer who would sometimes come by and correct Rocky, Rocky was beginning to rebel against the corrections. I switched to a clicker class using rewards and no leash correcting. This worked best for Rocky who is very food motivated. He really responded well. All this is just my experience not telling anyone the best way or the "right way".
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Postby JCleve86 » July 15th, 2006, 7:06 pm

I think a lot has been misinterpreted here. I don't see anywhere where someone directly said "put the dog to sleep." I myself said IF THE DOG IS UNSOUND, the best thing is to put him to sleep, but at least a few times reiterated that we don't know that to be true yet (or at LEAST implied that). I also myself stated that he IS still young, so who knows whats what.

And IF the dog is really unsound, I again think euthanisia is the best decision especially so for the breed.

If some people aren't comfortable with that, so be it.

Keep us updated on the little pill...hopefully he'll end up being a-okay...either way I know you love him and trust that you'll make the right decisions with him.
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Postby babyreba » July 16th, 2006, 12:05 am

that old "hanging the dog" and saying enough, etc. can be incredibly dangerous.

it doesn't always work and you have to be prepared for the dog to fight back, hard, and possibly attack you--not just bite you--if you even lose the slightest bit of control of that collar. my old GSD (who was put to sleep for aggression eventually) tried to kill the trainer when she thought she'd used that technique successfully with him . . . moments after she completed the correction, and they were going through a walk around the training ring to help the dog chill after the correction, the dog lunged at her midriff and tried to get a piece of her. fortunately, she was a pro and regained control of the situation before he could do more than get her shirt and belt.

so this is not something i'd recommend for a dog i hadn't met before, or an owner who's working out a relationship with the dog, that's for sure. it could backfire and become totally dangerous, and not every dog responds the same way to that kind of correction. some dogs will certainly hold a grudge, remember that moment with fear, and become even more problematic than before as a result.
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Postby msvette2u » July 16th, 2006, 11:43 am

babyreba wrote:that old "hanging the dog" and saying enough, etc. can be incredibly dangerous.

it doesn't always work and you have to be prepared for the dog to fight back, hard, and possibly attack you--not just bite you--if you even lose the slightest bit of control of that collar.


Exactly - "temporary fix" at best. As I said, we did it with the husky out of desperation and it was a "last resort" before the needle. Obviously it did not work. :(
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Postby mnp13 » July 17th, 2006, 2:30 pm

My first question - what experience does your vet have with training? A gentle leader is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. "Dog Prozac" is going to do nothing to help an aggression problem. Vets are medical doctors, unless this vet has actual training experience (and ask for credentials) I would speak to a trainer. I'm assuming you don't ask your medical doctor for advice on what training regimine you should do for bicycle riding?

2. Demo did not say "strangle the dog". Enough theatrics. I've done "the march" with Ruby more than once, it doesn't injure her, or really even hurt her. Grab the collar, stand up and walk. It's uncomfortable, but it gets the point across quite clearly.
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Postby Maryellen » July 17th, 2006, 2:41 pm

demo's remarks that were made could be taken that way by someone who doesnt know any better.. read his post.. a newbie who didnt understand would think demo meant hanging the dog inthe air.

Put the dog on a flat collar that he cannot slip. The next time he growls at you for any reason, hang his a$$ up and keep repeating "Enough...enough, enough..." Be prepared for him to try to bite you, but keep him hanging. He will decide that he wants to breathe more than he wants to be a jerk. When he calms down and behaves tell him he's good and don't hold a grudge. Now get on with your day, but be ready to repeat the procedure if necessary
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Postby babyreba » July 17th, 2006, 2:50 pm

actually, the way i was taught it, you do bring the dog up into the air off its front feet and you do let the dog hang and struggle till it gives in.

i don't think there's anything dramatic about saying that, because that's what you do . . . the dog doesn't strangle because once it stops fighting and submits, you release your hold.

i'm sure some people feel it's brutal and whatnot, it is what it is . . . i just don't think it's great advice to offer unless you're evaluating the dog in person . . .
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Postby DemoDick » July 17th, 2006, 11:45 pm

The dog is pushing boundaries and disrespecting the handler, plain and simple. I don't care if the dog thinks that the correction was unfair. If you allow this kind of behavior to continue without an immediate consequence, you are telling the dog that he's in charge.

Most dogs euthanized for "aggression issues" get that way because their owners let them push them around for way too long and then try to assert dominance in one fell swoop.

If your kid told you to go to hell when you told him to do the dishes, would you take him to a medical doctor? Of course not. So why would you take a vets advice on dog behavior?

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Postby rockermom » July 18th, 2006, 7:48 am

juniper8204 wrote:
a-bull wrote: Anyway...that said, I have an update on Doodle. I talked with his vet, and she said it's definitely a good idea to get him neutered as soon as possible; I have had an appt. to get him neutered for a week...he goes on Monday. She suggested trying a Halti/Gentle Leader and also giving him some Clomicalm, which she says has helped a great many dogs she's seen that show aggression. It's not a permanent thing, but hopefully it will help. She did mention that there is a possibility that I may have to euthanize him, but not to consider it until she's had a look at him. One of her majors in college was canine behavior, so she is my vet/animal behaviorist.


She said her vet is a behaviorist. My trainer would also probably recommend a halti or a gentle leader chest harness. My old trainer would recommend the hanging. Prong is not working what is the hurt in trying a different method? If I was in her position I would try everything I felt comfortable with. In my case leash corrections were not as effective (rebelling) as food rewards for doing the right thing. Different Strokes. Old and New. Everyone thinks their way is the best way. My first trainer considered his way the only way. SOme of the things I learned in my first class I use. Some stuff I would never do again. Good Luck I hope it all works out.
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Postby SisMorphine » July 18th, 2006, 9:22 am

DemoDick wrote:The dog is pushing boundaries and disrespecting the handler, plain and simple. I don't care if the dog thinks that the correction was unfair. If you allow this kind of behavior to continue without an immediate consequence, you are telling the dog that he's in charge.

Most dogs euthanized for "aggression issues" get that way because their owners let them push them around for way too long and then try to assert dominance in one fell swoop.

If your kid told you to go to hell when you told him to do the dishes, would you take him to a medical doctor? Of course not. So why would you take a vets advice on dog behavior?

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Don't let the pup push boundaries. And definitely DON'T sign his death warrant yet. He's just a snotty puppy and is perhaps a bit of a dominant boy. Yes, neutering may help, but in the long run he'll need more. Definitely get him off the furniture, enforce NILIF, and see a trainer as far as what would be an appropriate correction for your dog. For one dog a quick pop on a flat would work, but for another that wouldn't be enough. It's best to let the pros decide what is appropriate. Just make sure you find a trainer who doesn't do cookie cutter training (ie: doesn't use the same method for every single dog that comes through there).
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Postby cheekymunkee » July 18th, 2006, 10:14 am

DemoDick wrote:The dog is pushing boundaries and disrespecting the handler, plain and simple. I don't care if the dog thinks that the correction was unfair. If you allow this kind of behavior to continue without an immediate consequence, you are telling the dog that he's in charge.

Most dogs euthanized for "aggression issues" get that way because their owners let them push them around for way too long and then try to assert dominance in one fell swoop.

If your kid told you to go to hell when you told him to do the dishes, would you take him to a medical doctor? Of course not. So why would you take a vets advice on dog behavior?

Demo Dick


This is what helped Booger understand his place, when I snatched him up it was swift and sudden.............scared even ME. It was just a reaction to his growl & he learned it would get him no where. I didn't think about it, I jsut did it. He growled at me & was off his feet in a heartbeat. While I don't recommend this for everyone it did him a world of good. It was not cruel, it did not hurt him, he did not struggle, he was not off his feet but for an instant but that instant he remembered for a looooong time.
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Postby mnp13 » July 18th, 2006, 12:14 pm

Great, the vet is a "behavorist" again - what does the vet know about training?

Gentle leaders control, they do not teach the dog to respect the handler.

Riggs is dominant. I work him on a flat collar, and have not had a prong on him since April. He pushes me as a handler every time I put his leash on.

I wouldn't think of putting a GL on him if you paid me. I want a dog who does as he is told because he is told. I don't want a dog that is dominated into compliance - and head collars are dominance. In their own literature they liken the head collar to the correction given by a mother dog - a dominance correction. So on every walk, every time you use it, you are dominating, not training.

Lose the head collar or chest harness and I would be willing to bet your dog gives you the finger. Take the collar off of a dog trained to respect you as a handler and your dog will still listen.

I know more than one person whose dog is an "angel" on the GL, but then they forget it, lose it, break it, whatever and that dog is right back to its old self in 1.2 seconds.

Don't control, TRAIN.
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Postby DemoDick » July 18th, 2006, 1:49 pm

Anyone who calls themself a behaviorist and them recommends a GL for a dog asserting dominance through aggression should not refer to themselves as such.

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Postby DemoDick » July 18th, 2006, 2:01 pm

In my case leash corrections were not as effective (rebelling) as food rewards for doing the right thing.


We're not talking about refusing to down. We're talking about openly challenging the handler. I too use rewards throughout training. But we're not talking about training. We're talking about respect. Respect is gained throught the consistent enforcement of boundaries. It sounds like this dog (1) doesn't know where the boundaries are or (2) knows and is pushing them. In either case he needs a wake up call for growling at the handler. Cookies aren't going to cut it.

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