Some aggression issues with Doodle...

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby juniper8204 » July 13th, 2006, 10:07 pm

For those of you who don't know, I rescued Doodle in mid-June. He is approx. five months old...a pit bull mix. Everything has been going great with him; he's been responding to training very well. He's a VERY fast learner. Besides him getting into everything (i.e. being a normal puppy) everything was going well until yesterday.

Since we don't have a fenced yard, I take him outside on the leash. I've taught him the command, "Go pee" and he understands what it means. It applies to going pee and poo. Well, yesterday, he went number one and seeing as how it was first thing in the morning, I knew he had to go number two. I told him to "Go pee", he sniffed around a bit and then found something more interesting. I told him "No, go pee" and he got focused but then started goofing off again. Several rounds of this, and I popped the leash to get his attention. I thought I imagined the nasty look he gave me, but apparently I didn't. A second leash tug and he growled and came up the leash at me. It completely shocked me! The hair on his neck was standing up. It took all I had not to show my fear (even a five month old can be scary if they mean business). Once we were inside, he was fine. By the way, just in case you're wondering, he did need to poop. So, I wasn't trying to make him do something he didn't need to do.

When we go on walks, I've started using the self-correcting collar a.k.a. the prong collar. He was dragging me everywhere with a flat buckle collar, and the prong collar worked well with my past dogs. He responded well to it. A couple of yips and he got used to it. Never had a nasty reaction to it EVER. This paragraph is just to tell you that he has had the prong collar on before...

Today, he wouldn't stop chasing the cats, and would not stay in a down position, so I put the prong collar on attached to my leash. He was fine until he tried going after the cat again. I popped the leash when he started to go after him, and yet again he rolled his lip with a cold stare and growled at me. I did a series of "sit, down, sit, down" and everytime I corrected him (verbally or with the collar), he growled at me. I have an appointment to get him neutered Monday, but I don't know if that will solve it. Seeing as how I don't know his past, however short it is, puts me at a loss as how to approach this. I don't know if it's dominance or if he's scared of something, or maybe he has a screw loose...I just don't know. All I know is I cannot and will not tolerate a dog in my house who I can't trust. I have a 2 and a half month old daughter...I cannot take any chances.

PLEASE...I really need some advice. I need to nip this in the bud before it gets any worse than it is now. I don't want to send him back to the rescue, but I'm not going to jeopardize anyone's safety, namely my daughter and two step-children.

Thanks for any and all advice.

Jen
Jen
Mommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!
User avatar
juniper8204
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 366
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Postby Maryellen » July 13th, 2006, 10:15 pm

do you know what he is mixed with? was he from a rescue or a shelter? do you let him on the furniture? do you practice NILIF with him? http://www.k9deb.com for Nothing In Life Is Free.

a 5 month old pup that curls his lip and growls at me is toast. if he does it more then once, he is gone. but this is just me.. since you dont know his background, does the rescue??
it sounds like the honeymoon period is over, its usually 30 days and as the dog gets more comfortable in the new house he /she will test the new owners, and show their true colors..

some dogs are genetically wired wrong, and with mixes you have to be doubly careful.. either he is feeling his oats and trying to see what he can get away with cause he thinks you are a pushover, or he is genetically wired wrong, if he is genetically wired wrong then he should not be adopted out to anyone.

he could also just be acting like a snot.
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby juniper8204 » July 13th, 2006, 10:26 pm

The rescue does not know his background. They found him and another dog running at large. When I adopted him, he was still at a shelter since the rescue had absolutely no room.

Yes, I enforce the Nothing in Life is Free. He has to sit and wait for his dinner. I make sure to feed him separate meals so that he knows food is a privilege, not a right (don't get me wrong, I'd never starve him). He has to wait for permission to enter a room. I always enter first and tell him to wait. Only after I say, "O.K." is he allowed in. He knows darn well I'm not a pushover, too. What I say is law!

He is allowed on one of the couches and he sleeps with my husband and me. Is this a no, no? If it is, I will end that. I will do anything to fix this...I love this bugger.

I have no idea what he's mixed with. His pictures are in the gallery, if you'd like to take a shot at it.

I agree with you, Maryellen. I do not tolerate aggressive behavior AT ALL. And I am not going to pawn him off on some unsuspecting dog lover. The same thing could happen again, and someone could get seriously hurt.
Jen
Mommy to Mindy Lou and Moose

Pits are addicting!!! If I foster any more, my husband will have my head!
User avatar
juniper8204
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 366
Location: Fayetteville, NC

Postby DemoDick » July 13th, 2006, 11:10 pm

NILIF is great, but in your case it may push him into further dominance behaviors. I have a much more effective way to deal with what you described.

Put the dog on a flat collar that he cannot slip. The next time he growls at you for any reason, hang his a$$ up and keep repeating "Enough...enough, enough..." Be prepared for him to try to bite you, but keep him hanging. He will decide that he wants to breathe more than he wants to be a jerk. When he calms down and behaves tell him he's good and don't hold a grudge. Now get on with your day, but be ready to repeat the procedure if necessary.

This kind of thing needs an immediate and unforgettable response from you. Let him know that you control everything for him, including his air supply. If you try to redirect his behavior you are not addressing it in the way it needs to be addressed.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby msvette2u » July 14th, 2006, 3:49 pm

DemoDick wrote:NILIF is great, but in your case it may push him into further dominance behaviors. I have a much more effective way to deal with what you described.

Put the dog on a flat collar that he cannot slip. The next time he growls at you for any reason, hang his a$$ up and keep repeating "Enough...enough, enough..." Be prepared for him to try to bite you, but keep him hanging. He will decide that he wants to breathe more than he wants to be a jerk. When he calms down and behaves tell him he's good and don't hold a grudge. Now get on with your day, but be ready to repeat the procedure if necessary.

This kind of thing needs an immediate and unforgettable response from you. Let him know that you control everything for him, including his air supply. If you try to redirect his behavior you are not addressing it in the way it needs to be addressed.

Demo Dick


Just as an FYI, we did all these things with a husky mix we had and still had him PTS for biting every one of us.

a 5 month old pup that curls his lip and growls at me is toast. if he does it more then once, he is gone. but this is just me..


I'm the same way. We tried for three mos. with the husky mix. It was all for naught. He was wired wrong plus had been apparently exposed to meth (he was picked up from a meth lab).
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby JCleve86 » July 14th, 2006, 4:16 pm

Personally, I'd think humane euthanasia beats strangling a dog every time he misbehaves, but thats just me. :|

If it were me and he were continuing to show this kind of behavior, my remedy would be finding a big fat deserted field, a big fat juicy steak, and a day full of fun. And then a trip to the vet.

He IS still young though...which brings up the question to me, at what point (age wise) do you determine whether or not the dog is just being a jackass puppy or if he really has aggression issues?
JCleve86
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 465
Location: Puyallup, WA

Postby Maryellen » July 14th, 2006, 4:25 pm

if he keeps doing what he is doing then to me he is not being a snot, he is wired wrong. i for one would never do what was suggested in hanging the dog till they got it. that to me is not my style and you cant change genetics.

i have seen and had pups here that young that were wired wrong. it happens
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby Romanwild » July 14th, 2006, 5:12 pm

If NILF doesn't work then why not try what Demo suggested. Why give him the needle if that would work?
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby Vanessa » July 14th, 2006, 5:31 pm

I have had experiance with the "hanging" method that Demo described and while i don't like it, we had to do it too Ozzy twice. He had alot of dominance issues with my boyfriend when he first moved in with us and we had to take him to a trainer. He showed us how to do it and it was only as a last resort.
My boyfriend was training Oz in the back yard and he told him to go "down". Oz wouldn't do it so my bf pushed him down with his foot on the leash. Oz growled and made a move as if to snap at him and my bf did the hanging thing. We call it "the shake". He started listening again and really seemed respectful. He ended up having to do it again a week or so later and never had to again.
I was contemplating having him PTS if he didn't improve but he has come a very long way.
The shake/hanging should only be used as a last resort but it worked for us.
R.I.P Ozzy my precious angel. You were loved every minute of every day.
User avatar
Vanessa
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 415
Location: Canada

Postby Maryellen » July 14th, 2006, 5:53 pm

different strokes for different folks thats all..
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby msvette2u » July 14th, 2006, 5:56 pm

My fear with it would be, if he's genuinely miswired, this will only be a temporary fix, if a fix at all.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby Maryellen » July 14th, 2006, 5:56 pm

i agree yvette.. a temporary fix would be bad..
Maryellen
I live here
 
Posts: 5971

Postby JCleve86 » July 14th, 2006, 6:28 pm

Why not? Because there are THOUSANDS of pit bulls (and mixes) out there dying in shelters who WON'T need to be strangled to behave. Simple as that. WHY put forth the effort (and take the risk) of saving a temperamentally sub-par dog when a sound dog could be in his place, but instead, this sound dog will die for lack of space, and this unsound dog may very well end up making another headline.

This is, of course, assuming the dog in quesiton TRULY is unsound.
Last edited by JCleve86 on July 14th, 2006, 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JCleve86
Confident Young Bully
 
Posts: 465
Location: Puyallup, WA

Postby msvette2u » July 14th, 2006, 6:41 pm

JCleve86 wrote:Why not? Because there are THOUSANDS of pit bulls (and mixes) our there dying in shelters who WON'T need to be strangled to behave. Simple as that. WHY put forth the effort (and take the risk) of saving a temperamentally sub-par dog when a sound dog could be in his place, but instead, this sound dog will die for lack of space, and this unsound dog may very well end up making another headline.

This is, of course, assuming the dog in quesiton TRULY is unsound.

Good post - and true - the dog should be evaluated and the more I think about it, the sooner the better - a professional who is familiar with bullies should evaluated this dog - if truly unsound, especially with the kids in the house, it needs to be humanely euthanized as soon as possible. If someone doesn't like me adding the kids to the post/concern, think about it this way - you might be able to manage the aggression but kids are unpredictable at times and one could be left alone with the dog at some point and get injured. Like Jamie said - the next headline, and possibly irreversable damage to one of these kids.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby cheekymunkee » July 14th, 2006, 8:52 pm

This is, of course, assuming the dog in quesiton TRULY is unsound


Yes, but that is only an assumption. Not to mention an ownded PUPPY, NOT a rescue. No one here is capable of judging what is going on with this dog over the internet. I think it is a little early to put a needle to this dog when it is very possible it just has a chip on it's shoulder that needs to be knocked off. I have done this, I did it with Booger when he was about this age. He thought he ruled the roost and that he was the coolest thing on 4 legs...........he found out rather quickly that he was not. He was about 6 months old & a snot, he growled at me over a ball in the yard. I didn't choke him off., I pulled him up by the leash level with my face & gave him a shake & a stern talking to. It wasn't a quick fix, it was a come to jesus moment for him & he took the advice. He never did it again, he would grumble & groan his displeasure but he never again growled at me. It is very possible this is a genetics thing but no one here is capable of knowing that by what she has posted. Sometimes a little training & behaviour "modification" goes a looooong way.

the dog should be evaluated and the more I think about it, the sooner the better - a professional who is familiar with bullies should evaluated this dog - if truly unsound, especially with the kids in the house, it needs to be humanely euthanized as soon as possible.


I totally agree with this.
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

Debby
User avatar
cheekymunkee
I Have Your Grass
 
Posts: 28540
Location: Dallas

Postby msvette2u » July 14th, 2006, 9:07 pm

I pulled him up by the leash level with my face & gave him a shake & a stern talking to.

While this might work for a "talker" but not a "do-er", for a "do-er" or a true biter, it oculd spell disaster.
The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing.
User avatar
msvette2u
I live here
 
Posts: 6812
Location: Eastern WA

Postby Romanwild » July 14th, 2006, 10:06 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
This is, of course, assuming the dog in quesiton TRULY is unsound


Yes, but that is only an assumption. Not to mention an ownded PUPPY, NOT a rescue.

Sometimes a little training & behaviour "modification" goes a looooong way.


Thanks you saved me a post. :D
User avatar
Romanwild
I live here
 
Posts: 2931
Location: Watertown NY

Postby a-bull » July 15th, 2006, 11:52 am

So a five month old puppy wants to sniff something rather than "go pee" on command, so he gets a command and a collar pop for that, ignores you further, so he gets a collar pop for ignoring you, gives you what you perceive to be a "nasty look", gets another pop for that and you evoke a growl.

A) How on earth do you expect him to know what you want from him, and;

B) Shouldn't the first growl have been an indication that what you're doing isn't working?


Hanging him, euthanizing him . . . my gawd . . . what the heck ever happened to training??! This is a five month old puppy!

Nobody on here even knows if this person is accuarately reading this situation, and in my opinion, basic puppy training probably would have worked out alot better for you than collar popping a five month old puppy for not going pee on command.

Ya know, there are alot of young people that frequent these boards for dog training info. and advice, and even adults unsure of how to teach basic training. Tossing out suggestions of euthaninzation, hanging dogs, etc. just is not appropriate. In this case we're talking about a five month old puppy, a rescue puppy---which means it may not even be a pitbull mix for all she knows, and an interpretation of a situation presented on a forum that may be accurate or not.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Postby Magnolia618 » July 15th, 2006, 12:11 pm

I honestly do not think that Demo is saying to actually hang the dog, the way you guys are thinking he is. I have held Trey up by his collar to get his attention many times.

Michelle showed me that method instead of leaning down to make him sit after I've told him to. Just hold the leash up so his front feet leave the ground and then he will sit. It does not hurt him. There has been many times when one of the dogs do something wrong and I hold them by the collar and bring them into another room. I have heard Michelle's story of Ruby jumping the fence (?) and she is dragged home by the collar with her front feet off the ground. It's not like it hurts the dog. Trey has learned to walk on his back legs with out any effort if I am holding his collar up.

Try walking a TOTALLY out of control shelter dog with no manners who is trying to chase everything and jump on everyone. I dont see the problem with getting a dogs attentionm by holding him up by his/her collar and having a STERN talking to them untill they calm down.

Its not like he was saying to use a choke chain and physically harm the dog :|

Or maybe I read his post wrong...

I think that a 5 month puppy who is growling needs some serious evaluation by a professional (BULLY EXPERIENCED) trainer. The dog very well might be just being a snot. Otherwise, I would have it euthanized before it got worse.
“Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated.â€
User avatar
Magnolia618
I live here
 
Posts: 2435
Location: Onion, VT

Postby a-bull » July 15th, 2006, 12:35 pm

The suggestions being made in this thread can easily be misinterpreted and implemented inappropriately.

A five month old puppy should be in a basic obedience class. If and when behaviors crop up that do not respond to basic, consistent training methods, then a behaviorist could/should be consulted.
Last edited by a-bull on July 15th, 2006, 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DISCLAIMER:

My posts are my own opinions unless otherwise stated. They are not necessarily correct for all dogs or all owners.
a-bull
I live here
 
Posts: 2926

Next

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot]