Dog temperments ..

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Postby realpitbull » January 27th, 2006, 4:34 pm

I guess the "extreme aggression" thing threw me.
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 27th, 2006, 4:34 pm

It's just something I could never wrap my mind around.



Me either. Munkee would prefer that all other dogs die & he would love to be the one that makes this happen. However he adores people ( and kitties) to the point that it is disgusting. My daughter took him outside to meet a couple of her friends the other night, one of them had to CARRY his butt back in the house because he did not want to leave them. :rolleyes2: I was in bed or I could have given him the "evil eye" & he would have been in the house in a second. I wouldn't have him any other way. His dog aggression, I can deal with.
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Postby mnp13 » January 27th, 2006, 5:06 pm

realpitbull wrote:I guess the "extreme aggression" thing threw me.


Well, I meant what I said...aggression to the point where someone would think twice about getting near the crate. I'd prefer that Ruby was like that then her usual 'begging to get out' routine.
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Postby Romanwild » January 27th, 2006, 6:58 pm

Good answers everyone! :wink:

I was fully prepared when I got Dreyfus that he would want to anniliate all dogs. That way I was prepared. He still isn't dog aggressive....so far.

There was a thread someplace else, maybe PBP, where some people wanted to breed out the dog aggressiveness. :rolleyes2: How long would that take? :shock:
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Postby pLaurent » January 27th, 2006, 7:14 pm

I never judge an animal by it's behavior when caged. We are a cat rescue and cannot take some cats to adoption events because they freak, hiss, and try to rip people's hands off. Out of the crate and at home, they are totally sweet and lovable.

There's a so-called rescuer on another board, and feels that CAT aggressive pit bulls should be euthanized. After all, what if the dog gets loose and kills the neighbour's cat?? :shock: All these people should stick to stuffed Care Bears.


That's like asking BC people, "Why rescue the prey-driven dogs that like to herd people if there are atypical, non-drivey dogs available??"


Excellent analogy, and one I use (with variations) often. [/quote]
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Postby satanscheerleader » January 27th, 2006, 8:48 pm

Although shyness is not the preferable temperment, I wouldn't relate it to aggression. There are alot of shy dogs that have never shown aggression over being shy, my Venus being one of them. In fact, most dogs I know that have become aggressive and/or bitten weren't shy at all. It was usually cases or redirection, dominance issues, just plain bad wiring and/or extreme mishandling. A seemingly confident outgoing dog can be aggressive just as much as a fearfull one but for different reasons. That being said, I definitely understand why a shy dog wouldn't be used in a breeding program and even understand why one might be passed up in a full rescue program. If you had a slew of dogs to choose from of course you are going to choose the best of the best since there is only so much space. I even understand why some rescues will pass up placing a dog that is over the top animal aggressive. They are often just to much for the average pet home to handle responsibley which is exactly where these rescue dogs end up. Most of them don't go into homes of working dog people who could handle such a dog. :shrug:
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Postby luvmyangels » January 27th, 2006, 8:55 pm

One of my first fosters was a 7 month old shepherd mix that was found tied to a tree in Brooklyn. When she came to me she was so scared. She was especially scared of bald men (sounds odd). I took her to my trainer to be evaluated and she denned herself under the chair I was sitting on and growled at the trainer. The trainer classified her as a "shy biter" and was unsure whether or not she should be adopted out. I refused to believe her so over the next week I worked her. The following week I brought her back with my son (who I had him work on petting her and loving her up) and she did a lot better. She went to the trainer and was treating my son as a litter mate in her store looking at toys. She ultimately got adopted and I sat with the girl that adopted her for hours. The last I heard she was doing really well.
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 27th, 2006, 10:15 pm

satanscheerleader wrote:Although shyness is not the preferable temperment, I wouldn't relate it to aggression. There are alot of shy dogs that have never shown aggression over being shy, my Venus being one of them. In fact, most dogs I know that have become aggressive and/or bitten weren't shy at all. It was usually cases or redirection, dominance issues, just plain bad wiring and/or extreme mishandling. A seemingly confident outgoing dog can be aggressive just as much as a fearfull one but for different reasons. That being said, I definitely understand why a shy dog wouldn't be used in a breeding program and even understand why one might be passed up in a full rescue program. If you had a slew of dogs to choose from of course you are going to choose the best of the best since there is only so much space. I even understand why some rescues will pass up placing a dog that is over the top animal aggressive. They are often just to much for the average pet home to handle responsibley which is exactly where these rescue dogs end up. Most of them don't go into homes of working dog people who could handle such a dog. :shrug:


Justice is shy, more so when not in hre element but has never shown aggression. She just needs to take a minute to warm up to new people. She will let them pet her & sniff their hand and then she is on her tummy wanting a rub. She's not an "in your face" dog, she will sit beside you calmly or lay against you but she is not as demanding of attention as Munkee is. She is a talker & will woo woo or bark & woo but she there is no aggression in her actions. She's not skittish or leary just shy. I know why she is like this and it has nothing to do with people perse, it is more with the 'newness", if that makes sense. She is a very sweet girl ,loves to be with people but is just not an attention whore. Munkee & Ollie (non pit) are obnoxious, goofy show offs so Justice's more laid back style is kinda nice sometimes.
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 27th, 2006, 10:17 pm

She is a very sweet girl ,loves to be with people but is just not an attention lady of the night



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Postby satanscheerleader » January 27th, 2006, 10:34 pm

:ROFL2:
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Postby turtle » January 28th, 2006, 2:04 am

cheekymunkee wrote:
She is a very sweet girl ,loves to be with people but is just not an attention lady of the night



:backRoll: :backRoll: :backRoll:


LOL, another word caught by the "bad word" filter!
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Postby Red » January 28th, 2006, 2:39 am

Personally I think people are NUTS who even approach a strange dog in their crate. It is a disaster waiting to happen.


Perhaps with any other breeds Michelle but not with bulldogs.I watch closely what a dog does in a crate when I take a first look at it (speaking of bulldogs only here).Fish eyes, tail tucked, rear down, ears back, lunging and growling are a first indicator of problems.Can the dog be okey if I pull him out?Maybe but there are thousands of dogs that won't do this.Guess which one will get pulled out?
God knows why the dog act like that when crated, might be abuse, might be fear, might be plain wrong genetic.But that tells me how the dog handled stress.If walking by a crate minding my businesses is enough to cause an extreme reaction then you can imagine what happens when I put the dog trough other tests.Say it passes all tests anyway but what do I tell to people who come adopt this dog and it lunges at them trough the crate? "oh he is fine, he just doesn't like to be crated but you do not need to crate him, do you? do you have kids?Cause make sure they don't go near the dog if you crate him... do you still want it?" Probably a no thank you follows.I am not giving such a dog to anyone.If the dog is willing to bite without being provoked then I can't.
Now, if the dog seem a bit stressed and worried when crated I will pull him out to see what's up.A not in-your-face bully..okey, let's see where the problem is, maybe it is something workable.But lunging and throwing a mega fit...I have to pass.
In rescues simply there aren't enough resources to work for months and months on a problem dog.It is not fair to dogs that can do fine after a year of work and who lived a hell of a life before we meet them but what to do?
The options aren't that many and they are tough.

I have a dog here who came from New Orleans.Did great at the rescue so I took him home to recover from a surgery.Did good with me and my husband but noticed some less that confident attitude.Fine, looks like a dog who has been chained all his life, quite scarred, the scars you see on dogs that are fought at least a few times, never seen a home before, judging by his reactions.Uhmmm...I will watch him.Then comes the vet time.The damn dog handled it quite badly.Without going in details I will say that I took him home and called the rescue immediately.This dog can't be adopted.The rescue will keep him anyway, they have room.He is here and I am living with a dog who is a fear biter.Good with us, he trusts us, but out there a lot is scary.Ain't much of a life, for me and him.It hurts to see him like that.He can stay here because he won't be a headline with me.He will go back at the rescue when it is a bit wormer.
So this dog appeared great where he felt okey.Yeah, looked a bit shy but also lovely with people he knew well.Imagine if the dog ended up adopted before I had a chance to witness his behavior.Just another pit bull who bites someone out of fear.This dog would need a super owner who knows what his limit are and keep the dog away from strangers or do long introduction in places where the dog feels safe...do you have one for him?I had poeple staying over night, he did great but he is where he knows that nobody will hurt him.Mind you, I lost sleep over this dog.He starves for attentions, he looks for me from morning till I go to bed, he pushes his head into my lap and stay there for minute after minute, without moving.Making calls on dogs is a frigging hard thing to do.I am not cut for it, infact I was struggling with it.I know what I am suppose to do but it doesn't make it easier.It isn't my call anyway, the dog doesn't belong to me.All I can say is that I wish for the people who caused this or bred him this way to go to Hell.


So what I am getting at is that shy or timid dogs aren't what this breed is about.They should be walking around like they own the place and not shy away from people or situations.I absolutely understand a dog who closes his eyes or shrink when I raise my hands, who knows what happened in his life? I can tolerate being afraid of being at the vet's.But the dog has to recover quickly and show me he can deal with this without showing aggression.What do we do with pit bulls that growl and snap when the stress is minimum? There is no room for them.Heck there is no room for solid dogs.Life is simply not fair for this breed, nor for those of us who are involved with them.I used to think badly about those that are quick to put down dogs, things just did not seem fair and they are not.But since I started to take responsability for what I place I had to deal with what comes with it.
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Postby satanscheerleader » January 28th, 2006, 2:57 am

Red wrote:Life is simply not fair for this breed, nor for those of us who are involved with them.


Ain't that the truth. :(
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Postby mnp13 » January 28th, 2006, 10:06 am

Perhaps with any other breeds Michelle but not with bulldogs.I watch closely what a dog does in a crate when I take a first look at it (speaking of bulldogs only here).Fish eyes, tail tucked, rear down, ears back, lunging and growling are a first indicator of problems.


Yes, those are indications of problems. but you are describing fear, and I agree 100% that fear aggressive dogs should not be in rescue; in any breed. It is just too unpredicatable.

But the reference that I made was not in the context of a dog that is afraid.

Had Ruby been evaluated by a responsible rescue, she probably would have been put down. She's not outgoing, she's shy to the point of being timid, and doesn't have the beginning of a wiggle butt. At that time she was also afraid of men.

My comments were not in relation to dogs being crate aggressive due to fear.

(I couldn't figure out where some of the mis-undertanding was coming from, so I went back and re-read my posts on this thread, and I found this gem:)

With the exception of me and Demo, Connor will injure anyone who sticks their fingers in his crate. He's been like that since day one. Crate aggression is not unheard of in any breed. The dog knows there is no way out if you try to hurt it. The best defense is a good offense, so they figure if they keep you away they are safe.


Well, well, look at that! Very bad communication on my part!

Here is a corrected version of that paragraph:

With the exception of me and Demo, Connor will injure anyone who sticks their fingers in his crate. He's been like that since day one. There is no indication of fear with him, it's just 'back off'. I should also point out that we have never told him not to do that either.

(separate thought)

Crate aggression is not unheard of in any breed. The dog knows there is no way out if you try to hurt it. The best defense is a good offense, so they figure if they keep you away they are safe. (and this description sounds like 'fear aggression is ok in a crate, just ignore it' and that was not the point I was trying to make.)
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Postby mnp13 » January 28th, 2006, 10:14 am

In rescues simply there aren't enough resources to work for months and months on a problem dog.It is not fair to dogs that can do fine after a year of work and who lived a hell of a life before we meet them but what to do?


I agree with this 100%.

I recently had a discussion about this on another forum. It makes me crazy when I hear about the 'hard luck' cases in rescue where they are spending hundreds and hundreds on one sick, hurt, or problematic dog while 100 other dogs get put to sleep that didn't need 1/4 of that care.
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Postby Red » January 29th, 2006, 1:20 am

My comments were not in relation to dogs being crate aggressive due to fear.


But where do you think the aggression come from? In my opinion the dog might perceive a certain situation as a threat.Dogs that are comfortable with people around them, especially pit bulls, don't show aggression when crated.
I don't know if Connor was thought to do this, for some odd reasons, but it is certainly a "uh-oh" to see a crated pit bull to react that way.
That trick would cost a pit bull its life if it was in a shelter or rescue.

I recently had a discussion about this on another forum. It makes me crazy when I hear about the 'hard luck' cases in rescue where they are spending hundreds and hundreds on one sick, hurt, or problematic dog while 100 other dogs get put to sleep that didn't need 1/4 of that care


You know, I think that often a certain dog "touches" us, if I can use this wording, and we just want to give it a chance of a real life, for a while and till we can.Maybe we feel that someone has to do it, sort of to make up for the life the dog never had in the hands of "human beings".
Right or not we all come across these hard luck cases, sooner or later.There are so many.
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Postby Maryellen » January 29th, 2006, 11:04 am

its hard to judge a dog for possible rescue if they go ballistic in their crates.. very hard.. same thing with in a kennel.. rufus is fine in his crate with people, but not fine with other dogs if he is in his crate out in public if he is stressed.. jesse is fine when she is in her crate, but for some reason she doesnt like people sticking their fingers in her crate. i dont know why.. i have had her since 8 weeks old, never had a problem until a little over a year ago.. so, i worked with her on that fingers in her crate are good.. who knows what happened while she was in her crate to make her change.. she is never in her crate, even before that she rarely was put in her crate..
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Postby mnp13 » January 29th, 2006, 2:06 pm

Red wrote:But where do you think the aggression come from? In my opinion the dog might perceive a certain situation as a threat.Dogs that are comfortable with people around them, especially pit bulls, don't show aggression when crated.


the same place that 'aggression' comes from when someone knocks at the door. It's territorial, and I think every dog of every breed has it in varying degrees. (Personally I don't think Connor would bite if you stuck your fingers in the crate, not that I would let anyone test that. Demo however is of the opinion that he would, so I try to defer tot hat since he is Demo's dog.)

In realation to the comment about crate aggression related to children - in Connor's case that was squeltched the minute he started it. I have three neices, and the first time he started with them when they got near his crate he was corrected for it. No, we don't take chances, but sometimes even supervised kids decide to be pains in the neck. At camp he is in a closed room when he is in his crate, but disobedient 6 year olds are just that... disobedient 6 year olds. So, my statement earlier, was incorrect, he could be taught not to do it.

Funny story - he was crated in a trailer when we were training in Maryland, and his crate was right across from the bathroom door. At first he'd start howling the minute someone came in the trailer. then he realized that everyone was coming to use the bathroom. So he started ambusing people. He'd wait until they were right infront of the crate and they start barking at them, it was so funny to hear the reactions of the people getting startled. Little creep.
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Postby DemoDick » January 29th, 2006, 3:31 pm

Personally I don't think Connor would bite if you stuck your fingers in the crate, not that I would let anyone test that. Demo however is of the opinion that he would, so I try to defer tot hat since he is Demo's dog.)


Depends on who we are talking about. I guarantee that if he lights up in the box and someone other than myself or Michelle sticks a finger in there, it's gone. I might be able to get away with it, and Michelle might as well. But a stranger? No way.

I don't know if Connor was thought to do this, for some odd reasons, but it is certainly a "uh-oh" to see a crated pit bull to react that way.


Yes, he was taught to do this for a very specific reason. I would rather him be a lunatic in the crate and be secure than be "safe" in the crate and end up in a pit because he got stolen. No one that sees him activate in the crate thinks "Oh, yeah, I'll just open the door and snap on a leash and away we go." Also, this dog is trained to bite people. And he does it very very well. The only people that I allow to handle him are Michelle and our club training director. He's very safe and social (Charles can attest to that), but I know what can trigger him and can see the signs of aggression before they become apparent to the untrained eye.

The thought of random person taking him out to take a leak is pretty uncomfortable for me. Would he be okay? I'm 99% sure of it. However, that 1% is one hell of a gamble for a dog that can literally cripple you for life. Not to mention that we don't need any more bad press than we already have.

That trick would cost a pit bull its life if it was in a shelter or rescue.


Personally, I wouldn't euth a Pit Bull for this type of behavior without placing it into context and seriously evaluating where the behavior comes from. Now, a nut job that explodes defensively with no provocation is a different story. But often times a trained eye can pick up things that the average shelter or rescue worker can't. I'm not claiming that I'm some kind of clairvoyant, but working with trained protection dogs has given me a base of knowledge that better allows me to evaluate where the aggression is coming from. Most people simply don't understand what they are seeing. And most people (including adopters) have no idea to handle the behavior itself. So yes, I agree that in a shelter or rescue situation, such a dog would and should be put down.

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Postby SisMorphine » January 29th, 2006, 5:34 pm

Emi wrote:Yes, and oops forgot to say that Carlos said that he's a great dog , great temperment, just he didn't do well in crates, i have to much on my mind .. forgot to add that ...my mind is just all over the place today ...

I think that a dog like that should not be brought into an environment (ie: petco, etc) to be shown off because not only will he turn adopters away from him, but also may turn them away from the breed. Unfortunately it's all about how a dog shows to potential adopters, which is why many dogs do better in foster situations with people coming to the homes and meeting them.
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