Fear biting issues.

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Postby realpitbull » June 26th, 2006, 1:04 pm

Maryellen wrote:this pup is a shepherd mix.. not a pit bull


Ah, ok. I assumed this was a Pit Bull.

I still stand by my non-breed specific comments.
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Postby Libby » June 26th, 2006, 2:40 pm

Ketra, is there anyone in your area that knows the breed that can eval. her for you? I understand that this pup had a rough start, but it's not an excuse, not in this breed, especially in a puppy so young.

If you are going to look for a "behaviorist", ask for credentials. You need a college degree (at least a masters) to be a real behaviorist. Many trainers nowadays with no real understanding of behaviorism call themselves this, and it is entirely false advertising as far as I am concerned.


No, there isn't. To even find a 'breeder'(byb) I would have to travel 300+ miles, which wouldn't be a bad thing, if I could count on sound advice.

A dog that was thrown at the side of the road to die has probably had a less than ideal early life. I don't take into account the breed here. I would hazard a guess that she was grabbed from behind like that and then hurt in some way, that much fear is a sad thing.


I was kind of thinking the same thing. She is afraid of certain things, certain movements, its like she has been hurt in that fashion before.


The behavior Ketra described was extreme, especially so for a pup. I'm not suggesting give the dog up, not at this juncture. But I definitely think the bite needs to be viewed as serious and problematic and atypical, and she should be working with someone who can guide her along the way.


I'd just like to point out again, that she isn't a pitbull, or a pitbull mix. I don't know EXACTLY what breeds she is, but she looks like she has alot of GSD in her. I'm not saying that just because she isn't a pitbull, she should be treated any differently. The way she bit was like she was so terrified, her mind stopped functioning and she just tried to bitebitebite! The way it happened bothered me too, but I can say it was entirely my fault. All other times I approached her, I would talk to her to let her know I was coming up. This time, I didn't. I just grabbed her. And, since I've had her for such a short time, she hasn't learned to completely trust me.

ketra can you post the pups picture here??


Sure thing. These are from a couple days ago.
Image
Image
Image



I appreciate all the advice guys.


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Postby mnp13 » June 26th, 2006, 3:31 pm

I am very much a "why" person, in every respect.

This puppy has had an aweful aweful start in life. I'd guess that was pure survival instinct, and many breeds bite and hold vs. bite and let go.

I think your regular apprach of talking to her so you don't startle her is the best way to go.
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Postby realpitbull » June 26th, 2006, 3:51 pm

Ketra....very cute pup! I wish you good luck with her, and hope everything works out ok.

Michelle....'why' doesn't discount the severity of the behavior. JMHO. Imagine if this dog were full grown? Also, can I ask....if this were a Pit Bull, would you feel the same way? Or would you still excuse the bite?
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Postby mnp13 » June 26th, 2006, 4:00 pm

realpitbull wrote:Michelle....'why' doesn't discount the severity of the behavior. JMHO. Imagine if this dog were full grown? Also, can I ask....if this were a Pit Bull, would you feel the same way? Or would you still excuse the bite?


In my opinion "why" has everything to do with it. Sure, I can imagine if the dog were full grown, it would be the same thing.

And, yes, I would feel the exact same way if it were a Pit Bull. Dogs are dogs first and breeds second. I am not on the "do the right thing" bandwagon and I never have been.

I owned an unstable Pit Bull that bit me twice, and nearly removed my father's thumb. I didn't excuse her behavior, I understood it and we tried to control it. when that proved to be impossible she was put to sleep.

I don't "excuse" it, I understand it.
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Postby realpitbull » June 26th, 2006, 4:06 pm

Ok, gotcha. Thanks for explaining your position.
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Postby Malli » June 26th, 2006, 10:19 pm

It should be noted (and I have personally experienced this on many occaisions) that puppies are much more likely to bite. I see many young dogs that will bite over simple restraint or venipucture at work. None of our staff view a bite from a puppy as a warning to be cautious around the dog in the future (normally a bite, snip, or growl gives the dog a muzzle and a warning sign on his kennel).

They don't tolerate pain as well as adults.

Puppies tell other puppies that something hurts by biting and screaming.

A puppy at 10-14 weeks, nevermind one who was poorly socialized (a for sure) and abused (we're almost 100%) will not have learned yet how to communicate in "people" body language, and will still be communicating in "dog".

This is what I think :|


I'm not all that familiar with you Ketra, I just wanted to mention that I think its important not to spoil and coddle her too much (not saying that you are, I just know this is the tendancy with rescued abused dogs sometimes). I think she may actually feel more secure being handled -more or less- as you would your other dogs.
Have you ever done training with all your dogs at once? This may help her learn to follow them as an example, wich could work it's way into other aspects of her life. Just some thoughts...

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Postby Libby » June 27th, 2006, 12:06 am

I'm not all that familiar with you Ketra, I just wanted to mention that I think its important not to spoil and coddle her too much (not saying that you are, I just know this is the tendancy with rescued abused dogs sometimes). I think she may actually feel more secure being handled -more or less- as you would your other dogs.
Have you ever done training with all your dogs at once? This may help her learn to follow them as an example, wich could work it's way into other aspects of her life. Just some thoughts...


I did coddle her like crazy the first couple days, because I was unsure if she would survive. I do try to treat her like I do the other dogs, but I can't help but treat her more gently. I do train Lucy and Gypsy at the same time, and I have let Mexi participate in a couple training sessions. She seems to catch on very quickly. Playing with the dogs out in a field, she learned to bring the ball back to me by watching Gypsy. It was cute.

She is very smart, but I have a feeling she is very stubborn, too. I put the leash on her today, a thin chain one, so she wouldn't chew through it, and she was ok as long as she could drag it. As soon as I picked it up and limited her movements, she flipped out. She went completely nutz, and no matter what I did, I couldn't get her attention on me. So, I just held it until she wore herself out...I'm not sure if that was the best thing to do, but once she stopped, I reached down and pet her on the head, then dropped the leash. About twenty minutes later, I stepped on it to stop her from going, and she did the same thing, and yet, when I firmly said 'NO Mexi!' she calmed down alot faster. She avoided my hand when I reached to pet her, but just for a second. Then I unclipped the leash and let her run around free of it for a while.

When I fed her, I put the leash back on her, but just left it loose on the floor. She is getting better about it being clipped on, but she doesn't like it AT ALL when I hold it, or it gets caught on something.


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Postby realpitbull » June 27th, 2006, 9:28 am

Malli wrote:It should be noted (and I have personally experienced this on many occaisions) that puppies are much more likely to bite. I see many young dogs that will bite over simple restraint or venipucture at work. None of our staff view a bite from a puppy as a warning to be cautious around the dog in the future (normally a bite, snip, or growl gives the dog a muzzle and a warning sign on his kennel).

They don't tolerate pain as well as adults.

Puppies tell other puppies that something hurts by biting and screaming.

A puppy at 10-14 weeks, nevermind one who was poorly socialized (a for sure) and abused (we're almost 100%) will not have learned yet how to communicate in "people" body language, and will still be communicating in "dog".

This is what I think :|


Malli


That's a very good point; however, I don't consider normal puppy exploratory or protest "nipping" to be the same thing as a bite-and-hold that causes punctures. Can you imagine a litter of puppies that contantly put punctures in each other and momma dog during the learning stages?

Puppies are very mentally pliable and there hasn't been a lot of time for behaviors to sink in (or develop). But, for precisely this reason I think it is important that Ketra seek out a good trainer who can help her with what could potentially become a big problem. It doesn't take much for a dog to learn that "aggression works"; and puppies don't stay puppies for long.

Mexi shouldn't be allowed to practice aggression or avoidance behaviors, and the best way to prevent practice is to prevent situations in which practice is likely to occur - which is a trial and error process, unfortunately. In the meantime, lots of socialization and desensitization to handling needs to happen. Help on messages boards is great, and so are books, but they really don't take the place of good one-on-one, in person training help. Especially when aggression is the issue.

If a good puppy socialization class is available, I think this could be invaluable for Mexi, too.
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Postby 04100824 » June 27th, 2006, 5:19 pm

realpitbull wrote:
mnp13 wrote:
She had been lying on the side of a road, nearly dead


That is a 100% clear indicator of abuse to me. And it is not a stretch to say that abuse would probably have extended to physical abuse.


:|

Not saying it's not abuse. The point is, it's the behavior that you see that matters, not the past. Waving this behavior away because the dog was abused is not something I'd be likely to do. It's serious, regardless of 'why' she's doing it. All that really matters is that she DID do it.


I agree.

and all I mean by that is that it shold be taken seriously and not just brushed off as abused puppy behavior or coddled... sounds like she'll just need work is all, and wihle it shouldn't be punished, it should be worked on. :|
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