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Postby Maryellen » June 16th, 2006, 10:43 am

if they know the down command and the stay command then its not necessary.. its just another tool to help teach the down to a pup or adult that has no obedience training. like some trainers use food as reward, some use praise, some use clickers, etc..

if the dog is just learning its obedience,whether pup or adult, some trainers will use this method to get the dog to understand the down position, as some dogs even with a food lure wont down...
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » June 16th, 2006, 10:43 am

I believe the goal is to work up to at least them staying down for one hour. I know further down in this section is a big long post on the power down that I had started (another one I started and ran from!!!). It's got much more detail in it if you're interested. Inara understands down, and she understands stay, but she doesn't understand that they both mean until *I* say otherwise, not when she decides she's done (after about 30 seconds!). So I'm hoping this will teach her that stay means stay until I say otherwise. :| I've heard fab things about it, so I'm giving it the old college effort!
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2006, 11:43 am

04100824 wrote:What is this for again? Just another form of dominance training? How long is the final time? What''s the end all point?


What about teaching "down" is dominance training? She is not grabbing the dog and throwing it into the down and standing over her. She is putting her in a down and holding the leash to prevent the dog from getting up. I would assume (hope!) that the leash is slack while she is down and only gets tight when she starts pulling to get up.

The final time can be 5 hours if you want it to be. Down means down and park it until I say you can get up. (for my dogs anyway) It doesn't mean "lie down until you don't feel like lieing down anymore"

Fussing gets you longer time, not a release from the behavior.
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2006, 11:50 am

04100824 wrote:So, it sounds to me that this would be unnecessary if they already will obey a down, stay command?


but do they? If you put your dog in a down and after 5 minutes the dog has a tantrum then they don't "know" down. And personally I don't use "stay". Any command I give is to be followed until I give another command, be it "break" or to do another behavior. In my opinion, if you use "stay" and tell the dog to sit without following with stay then you are communicating to the dog that it can get up and wander away whenever it wants to. That, to me, is not obedience. Also, if you say stay after sit and the dog gets up, is he disobeying sit or disobeying stay?

Yes, the down is a way to reinforce leadership. It is an excellent exercise to contain a wild child when company is over, when you are eating dinner, when there are other dogs around, etc.

You can overpower your dog and do the work through pure dominance but that will ruin your obedience and your relationship with the dog, not enhance it.
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2006, 1:47 pm

04100824 wrote:What is this for again? Just another form of dominance training? How long is the final time? What''s the end all point?


What about teaching "down" is dominance training? She is not grabbing the dog and throwing it into the down and standing over her. She is putting her in a down and holding the leash to prevent the dog from getting up. I would assume (hope!) that the leash is slack while she is down and only gets tight when she starts pulling to get up.

I really don't understand why people (not just you) insist that putting your dog in a down is "mean" or necessarily "dominant"

The final time can be 5 hours if you want it to be. Down means down and park it until I say you can get up. (for my dogs anyway) It doesn't mean "lie down until you don't feel like lieing down anymore"

Fussing gets you longer time, not a release from the behavior.
Last edited by mnp13 on June 16th, 2006, 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 04100824 » June 16th, 2006, 8:27 pm

MNP, You seem to get ready to defend certain topics kind of easily... I suppose because you guys have had people argue this before? Or perhaps that's simply the way I read it.

I had just heard it was a dominance thing. I've just been wondering what the desired end result is, as I've never heard a straight or consistant answer. Makes sense to me, though I would not personally go for an entire hour...
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Postby Maryellen » June 16th, 2006, 8:49 pm

the desired end result would be having the dog do a down until you told them to get up. i practice this with rufus alot, since he does therapy, and sometimes the patients are nervous around dogs.. so i have him do a long down so that they can pet him while he is laying down. i think its everyones own preference on doing this, i have had mine do a down for an hour straight, but that was in dog training.. when i give cgc seminars and therapy dog seminars i will tellrufus to down, just to show people how obedience classes and working with the dog work.. i too have heard that this way of teaching down is a dominance thing.. i guess it depends on who you speak to as to whether its a dominance thing or a training thing...
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Postby dogcrazyjen » June 16th, 2006, 9:48 pm

It definately is a training thing. It is an exercise to break through the normal 1-3 minute stay and go for longer periods of time. Many dogs understand commands, but do not have that sort of duration. This is a structured way to practice that.

It is also a leadership thing. You are not bribing or rewarding this behavior, it is simply something they must do. You don't really correct either, you put them back if they get up. It teaches the dog that they must listen to the owner, regardless of if there are treats or compulsions or not.

It also is a bonding expirience. The dog is connected with you through the command, and relaxing with you, for a lengthy period of time. This time, day after day, helps bring you closer to the dog.

The end result is a little more respect, obedience and closeness. It is not a miracle cure all, it is just a tool which can, in conjuction with other training, help create a solid dog/owner relationship.
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2006, 10:34 pm

04100824 wrote:MNP, You seem to get ready to defend certain topics kind of easily... I suppose because you guys have had people argue this before? Or perhaps that's simply the way I read it.

I had just heard it was a dominance thing. I've just been wondering what the desired end result is, as I've never heard a straight or consistant answer. Makes sense to me, though I would not personally go for an entire hour...


Sorry if I sound defensive - read the thread titled "power down" and you may understand why I answered the way I did.

The idea is to go a little longer than your dog wants to do it. If they consistantly fuss at 3 minutes, go to 5... then 6... etc. What the dog eventually learns is that they just need to accept that down means they aren't going anywhere for a while and they just need to accept it.

Case in point, Riggs is in a down behind me right now. He's a pain in the neck in my kitchen so until I stop posting and can watch him he'll be in a down. We have spent a lot of time working on this, and he will now down for over an hour with low distraction. when I up the distraction his time goes waaaaaaaaay down. So that's the next step.
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