NAPBTA a grassroots movement

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 12:25 pm

Eh, I'm frankly unamused by your attitude. :rolleyes2:

And run for office? Jeeeeeez!!! Do I have to do EVERYthing??? :mindblowing:
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Postby Karen » January 26th, 2006, 12:30 pm

Scott a handful? Once they join the club they have as much say in the running of and direction of said club. Can't take their money and say so sorry we only wanted your $15 and name now go away. Doesn't work like that.

Your rah rah cheerleading is getting you posting in circles. Go back and read what you are writing. Look at it from an outside perspective. Doesn't quite look the same, does it.

As to the other folks, the Bully people started their own registry and got bashed for it after they were told by the other dog people to start one! How does that look to people just fiding out about the Bully dogs if that is their thing, or the regular dog people? Looks like a damned if you do or don't scenario. Can't have it both ways. I think we should support the bully people with their new registry and new NAME. Their breeding ethics suck sometimes but as long as they are their own breed, not our problem!

I don't see anyone petitioning a name change for our breed either. Why not? Isn't it time?

As to the temp aspect of the standard, get real. I would love to see it but I don't think I ever will. The big players in the breed don't want it because they produce wonky dogs.
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Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 12:32 pm

P.s.

Scot, did you not say this:

"I am saying stop fighting them and join together with them under a common cause. "

To me that sounds like "bury the hatchet". I will never stop fighting against bad breeders. I don't see us as working towards a 'common cause', I see us as being on opposing teams.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 12:35 pm

OK everyone has reasons why something wont work but noone can give a better idea!

Rationale is a funny thing! Everyone believes their own!

I give up ya'll are probably right!

There is no hope!

All of our attitudes stick to high heaven!
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Postby Karen » January 26th, 2006, 12:47 pm

matrix wrote:OK everyone has reasons why something wont work but noone can give a better idea!

Rationale is a funny thing! Everyone believes their own!

I give up ya'll are probably right!

There is no hope!

All of our attitudes stick to high heaven!


It is stink Scott. And no I'm just saying go back and read what you are writing, ok? Take a deep breath and become centered and rational. A tantrum isn't going to change anything but it will hurt you.

Going off on a convienient whipping boy isn't the answer. The concerns raised here are legitimate. To regurgitate the same thing over ad nauseum isn't really addressing the issue. Why not outline a realistic plan to start? Change the standard back to the old, address temperment for all segments of the breed FIRST.

Baby steps are what it takes and frankly, I don't think we have time.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 1:06 pm

Karen,
I can rethink but you can also propose amendments or a better way!

For instance if you dont want certain breeders or people in the NAPBTA then the executive staff can refuse membership according to the by-laws?

As I have always said. The goal of eradicating the bad APBT breeders will succeed no matter what! However, at that point APBT will be completely outlawed in every state, city and county.

My point has always been that "forget bad breeders" focus on saving the breed from PTA and other activist groups focused soley on irradication.

They want Cuddles kids, Matrix's kids, Hartagold kids, realpitbull kids as well as muggles, tatonka, cajin, et al.

They dont differentate between realpitbull and mugglespitbulls

Make a positive suggestion to improve the idea! Dont bash it! I dare you! :P

or better yet come back and bash me as a person! I certainly deserve it!
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Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 1:22 pm

Um, not for nuthin' but this was your idea. You have to present something viable. Something that sounds important. I don't think restricting membership is the way to go. But promoting the standard and temperament, as well as just some basic ethical breeding guidelines would be a good place to start. If you have some kind of position statements in place, at the very least, people can read them and go, "Ok, that sounds good and I'd like to join." Right now it's like a free for all with no direction.

Don't freak out. This is a discussion. I needed clarification because I had no idea what exactly you were trying to do and your comments about joining forces with bad breeders kinda turned me off to the whole thing. Let's see if this can grow into something more, with direction, and clearer mission points.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 1:27 pm

OK SEEEEEE that was great! thanks!

Here is the standard revisions with edits from the current active committee members on the standard!

History revised

Sometime during the nineteenth century, dog fanciers in England, Ireland, and Scotland began to experiment with crosses between Bulldogs and Terriers. They were looking for a medium sized dog that combined the tenacity and agility of the terrier with the strength and courage of the Bulldog. In the nineteenth century, immigrants brought these initial “bull and terrier” crosses to the United States where the American Pit Bull Terrier as a breed was officially created in 1898 along with the formation of the United Kennel Club. For the next 70 years, it was refined as one of the most versatile and human friendly working breeds ever developed. As with all working breeds its form, type and conformation were soon solidly defined by its function.

During its development and refinement the breed’s constitution, courage, good temperament, and human friendly nature were forged and perfected in the most unforgiving of environments, selected for against impossible odds, and refined by the needs and requirements of the working class families of America. The result was a dog that symbolized and embodied all of the great virtues to the United States of America: strength, indomitable courage, and gentleness with loved ones. It was because of these honorable characteristics that the American Pit Bull Terrier was held aloft as the canine symbol of The United States of American in the First World War. Like many other breeds of dog, the APBT does have a fighting heritage. However, they were more often used to catch semi-wild cattle and hogs, to hunt and flush game, to drive livestock, to protect livestock from wolves, coyotes, wild dogs, and most often, and primarily, their function was as the most faithful of family companions.

There are few breeds more adaptable to living as a member of a family and few breeds that can obtain a more beloved place in a person’s heart! Today, the American Pit Bull Terrier continues to demonstrate its versatility, competing successfully in Obedience, Tracking, Agility, and Weight Pulls, Dog Sport and Conformation. The American Pit Bull Terrier is also an extremely versatile and willing therapy dog, serving in care facilities for the elderly, Alzheimers failiities, cancer treatment hospitals, abused children’s facilities, and children’s reading help programs among others. (This may be a bit “wordy”, but I think including Therapy Dogs is important – edit as you see fit).
The United Kennel Club is the original registry for the American Pit Bull Terrier and was founded on the American Pit Bull Terrier. U.K.C. founder C. Z. Bennett assigned U.K.C. registration number 1 to his own APBT, Bennett's Ring in 1898.

Characteristics revised
The essential characteristics of the American Pit Bull Terrier are a human friendly nature, strength, unwavering confidence, and overwhelming zest for life. Physically the breed was developed for a combination of speed, agility, strength, stamina and endurance. This breed is overly eager to please their humans and should be seen as brimming over with enthusiasm in most situations. Properly bred members of the breed will not make good guard dogs because of their human friendly nature, but make excellent family companions. Like many other breeds, the APBT may exhibit some level of dog toward dog aggression, especially toward dogs of the same sex. Because of its powerful physique and high levels of energy, the APBT requires a responsible owner who will extensively socialize and provide obedience training and daily exercise for the dog. The breed's has a natural dexterity and ability to jump and climb so good fencing is a must for this breed. This breed does very well in all performance events because of its high level of intelligence and its willingness to work and please its owners.
The American Pit Bull Terrier has always been capable of doing a wide variety of jobs. Deviations from the described ideal should be penalized in direct proportion to the degree of the deviation.


Temperament new primary section
Quality temperament is the fundamental, essential and the most important aspect of the breed - “essential” being the key word in the foregoing statement. Above all aspects of conformation, the American Pit Bull Terrier must be stable of temperament. The temperament of the APBT is visibly displayed by an outgoing enjoyment of every moment, an alert Terrier attitude, and undeniable bulldog confidence.
Adults or puppies, of any age, that show any type of HUMAN aggression must be disqualified. Some degree of controllable “dog toward dog” aggression is normal, especially in young adults of the breed.
Judges must disqualify adult APBT that are fearful or timid. Puppies at their first shows may be nervous and wide eyed but should never display uncontrolled fear behavior. Puppies in 6-12 month licensed classes that display mild timid behavior should be allowed to continue in the class for socialization, but must never be awarded points. NOTE: This does not apply to novice puppies, though confident, friendly novice puppies must be preferred.
The truly, honestly and ethically bred American Pit Bull Terrier is always friendly to humans, always confident, and always alert to their surroundings.
Faults: Reserved or wariness toward humans; individuals lacking confidence; lack of awareness or interest in surroundings.
Disqualifications: Fearful or timid behavior in adults of the breed, human aggression in puppies or adults.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 1:30 pm

PS yes I see a few typo's and a few others were already corrected. Feel free to send typo and grammer type stuff to my attention matrix@matrixkennels.com
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Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 1:54 pm

A good start! There are a couple things in the history section that are kinda fanciful, like the breed being used as a hunting/flushing dog. I'd also be interested in seeing the proof to back-up the claim that they were used as stock/flock guardians (most bulldogs would have eaten the sheep!) I think toning down the fighting history is a good thing, but exaggerating thier usefulness is not helpful. We have to be careful about rewriting history.

Also, in the temp section, the comments about it being ok for pups to be wide-eyed and nervous/timid I don't agree with. It can be misconstrued, I think. Pups should be friendly and outgoing, with a consideration made for pups in the first and second fear-periods. This breed doesn't seem to experience too much, if any, fear during those periods, however, and I think it might be wise to just state that overly shy or fearful dogs are incorrect, regardless of age.
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Postby turtle » January 26th, 2006, 2:20 pm

realpitbull wrote:BUT, I won't join forces with any unethical breeders anytime soon. They are KILLING my breed. To say we need to join forces with the very people who are causing all our problems to begin with is backwards thinking.

I turned down membership with a new organization that seemed promising because the person running it was an unethical breeder. Just today, I turned down FREE graphic and logo design because the person who owned the company also bred Gotti/Razor's Edge dogs. I mean it when I say I don't support bad breeders. I have a difficult time supporting any organization or individual if they take even an indifferent attitude, let alone one of "we must embrace them".



Thank you Mary! I for one am very glad you are standing your ground and NOT supporting those bad breeders! Every little bit helps...

Interesting discussion here, I'll get back to reading.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 2:25 pm

OK just breifly:
there are two ways "in a standard" to say things
Preferred
and
must

There are two penalties " fault" and "disqualification".

If I suggest "DQ" for puppies that are nervous then that will blow the chances for a temperament section at all! However denying points is virtually the same thing! It means timid puppies wont CH.

Timid behavior in puppies must not be rewarded with points. tells a judge that they cannot under any circumstance give a blue ribbon to such a puppy. If this revision goes into effect and a judge awards a timid animal then you and the other witnesses can file a complaint against that judge and the judge will be held accountable.

I am in the DQ camp on all fearful behavior but in a puppy? I have seen 12 week old pups in novice class that were freaked out by "THE SHOW" but by the end of the day and "SHOW 2" they are happy wagging and taking it all in.

As I kinda asked, if you have comments about the standard please email me. For the record I made 2 changes based upon your comments though and just sent the next revision out to the committee!


You were asking for what the NAPBTA is doing and asked for an example of something positive. That was me giving you what you asked for. I'd pay a lot more than $15 to see those fearful GR CH top 10 dogs DQ'd.

This idea is about a real way to generate capital to lobby, research, educated! Im open to any others too! How about something positive in a post? "give and take" "constructive ideas which are very different from constructive citicism"
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Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 2:31 pm

So, you don't want to talk about the standard changes at all here? Only private email? Noted.

Thanks for sharing your revisions. Any changes like this to the standard are exciting.

Also, if you want any imput on anything specific, please feel free to email me privately.
Mary Harwelik, CPDT
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Postby turtle » January 26th, 2006, 3:11 pm

realpitbull wrote:So, you don't want to talk about the standard changes at all here? Only private email?



Humm, not much of a discussion if it all goes to private email.

I thought the Standard revisions you posted were posted because you wanted input on them???

I agree with Mary about the History bit, the breed was often used as general farm dogs but they were not herding dogs nor guardians.

Maybe replace that bit with general farm dogs used to catch hogs and cattle, and for small game hunting, with a little tweaking, the wording it would be more accurate.

Also pit bulls are still used today for hog hunting so might not hurt to put that it, that they can still do that job.

And I think anything that helps get the shy fearful dogs out of the ring is a great idea.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 4:12 pm

"You were asking for what the NAPBTA is doing and asked for an example of something positive. That was me giving you what you asked for (ie standard revisions making DQ for poor temperament). I'd pay a lot more than $15 to see those fearful GR CH top 10 dogs DQ'd. "

The NAPBTA made merle a DQ, that effort also lead ADBA to make it a DQ! The topic of the standard is left to members of the NAPBTA. If you want to have input then join! I DID!


Its very easy to get off topic and the topic of this thread was not standard revisions, of course the original topic is useless to continue with, and of course impossible, but it was to unite the pit bull community.
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 4:25 pm

PS Karen,
The old standard is virtually the same as the AKC standard. From a judges perspective of interpreting a standard it was the same. Is that what you meant?
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Postby realpitbull » January 26th, 2006, 6:28 pm

While you guys are at it, PLEASE get a SIZE DQ in there somewhere. PLEASE! The breed needs it desperately. A lot of people will be pissed off in the beginning, but they will be forced to get this breed back down to size. Even tho these monster Pit Bull breeders don't show, at least it is sending some kind of message.

Damn, maybe I do need to be on this committee. :rolleyes2:
Last edited by realpitbull on January 27th, 2006, 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Karen » January 26th, 2006, 6:50 pm

matrix wrote:PS Karen,
The old standard is virtually the same as the AKC standard. From a judges perspective of interpreting a standard it was the same. Is that what you meant?

The one before that Scott. While we're at it make the reds a variety.
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Postby realpitbull » January 27th, 2006, 10:07 am

Karen wrote:
matrix wrote:PS Karen,
The old standard is virtually the same as the AKC standard. From a judges perspective of interpreting a standard it was the same. Is that what you meant?

The one before that Scott. While we're at it make the reds a variety.


Hmmm...........
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Postby Karen » January 27th, 2006, 10:53 am

Well face it Mary, they are smaller (the true reds not pitterstaffs), more agile, more Terrier, and judges DO treat them different. If Dilly were 3 inches taller and 20 pounds heavier she would be a CH this summer hands down. She has that straight front they are gaga over in the pitterstaffs (chest too wide) even though she moves like a water buffalo from the front she has awesome side movement. So if she was a horse she'd finish.

She isn't she's an itty bitty puppy sized bundle and perfect.
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