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Postby odnarb » January 25th, 2006, 8:21 pm

mnp13 wrote:Aimee, if what you are saying is true, then why isn't it made public? The reason that so many people hold these breeders up as 'perfict' is because stuff like what you are saying is hidden away behind the slick websites and the pretty show ribbons.



Go take a look at PBF. An eight page thread that started as Scot's little, "Let's reuite the breed, rah rah!"

Yet in that awe-inspiring first post, I am mentioned twice in a darogatory manner BY name, and referenced three times. Then when I comment, he accuses me of "making the thread about me." I've been told to stop being such a meanie jealous bitch to the oh so greatness responsible breeder. I see that on the last entry he cut and pasted his entire first post, complete with the snotty comments to me. He wants me to apologize for saying he didn't health test a dog he bred to, yet he refuses to show the proof that he health tested the dog.

But no, I'm the bad guy, and there is no hypocracy involved at all. How can somebody go from thinking a 25 inch 100 plus pound dog is a great example of the breed to expert in such a short amount of time? Also, in this case, it's perfectly fine for a guy who had been in the breed for a whopping 3 years to evaluate some radiographs himself and decide if it's OK to breed. That's if he even did them at all.

If some Joe Shmoe came to the board and told the same story, all hell would break loose, and you all know that. Why is that OK for some people?


I understand your frusteration, but the vast majority of us aren't in areas where the 'responsible' breeders are, so we have to go by what those breeders say and what their supporters say.



Everytime you speak up about one, you get trashed. Heck, people HERE are calling me vindictive for bringing bad breeding practices to the public light.


when people hide the truth, they can't justify getting mad that others don't know the truth. That's like someone who doesn't bother to vote complaining about the government. If you don't step up and do what you can, how can you complain?



You are preaching to the choir! If people only knew some of the stuff I know about some of these "responsible" breeders, your toes would curl. But if you talk about it, you get accused of everything from being jealous, lying, spiteful, or thinking Pat Robertson is hot. Every time anybody does bring something into the spotlight, they set themselves up for character assasination.

Sometimes I wonder why it's worth it. I'll likely never own another pit bull beyond what I have. I have to admit that the Malinois is a better match for me. I should just turn my back and let everyone get taken over and over by charismatic characters, and watch the breed go down the tubes at the hand of its own keepers. I'm starting to think that is a better option :evil:
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Postby Darlazmum » January 25th, 2006, 8:49 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:well, she DOES have bad knees & a very bad temperment. :shrug: No to mention delusions of granduer
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Postby concreterose » January 25th, 2006, 9:14 pm

odnarb wrote:
mnp13 wrote:Aimee, if what you are saying is true, then why isn't it made public? The reason that so many people hold these breeders up as 'perfict' is because stuff like what you are saying is hidden away behind the slick websites and the pretty show ribbons.



Go take a look at PBF. An eight page thread that started as Scot's little, "Let's reuite the breed, rah rah!"

Yet in that awe-inspiring first post, I am mentioned twice in a darogatory manner BY name, and referenced three times. Then when I comment, he accuses me of "making the thread about me." I've been told to stop being such a meanie jealous bitch to the oh so greatness responsible breeder. I see that on the last entry he cut and pasted his entire first post, complete with the snotty comments to me. He wants me to apologize for saying he didn't health test a dog he bred to, yet he refuses to show the proof that he health tested the dog.

But no, I'm the bad guy, and there is no hypocracy involved at all. How can somebody go from thinking a 25 inch 100 plus pound dog is a great example of the breed to expert in such a short amount of time? Also, in this case, it's perfectly fine for a guy who had been in the breed for a whopping 3 years to evaluate some radiographs himself and decide if it's OK to breed. That's if he even did them at all.

If some Joe Shmoe came to the board and told the same story, all hell would break loose, and you all know that. Why is that OK for some people?


I understand your frusteration, but the vast majority of us aren't in areas where the 'responsible' breeders are, so we have to go by what those breeders say and what their supporters say.



Everytime you speak up about one, you get trashed. Heck, people HERE are calling me vindictive for bringing bad breeding practices to the public light.


when people hide the truth, they can't justify getting mad that others don't know the truth. That's like someone who doesn't bother to vote complaining about the government. If you don't step up and do what you can, how can you complain?



You are preaching to the choir! If people only knew some of the stuff I know about some of these "responsible" breeders, your toes would curl. But if you talk about it, you get accused of everything from being jealous, lying, spiteful, or thinking Pat Robertson is hot. Every time anybody does bring something into the spotlight, they set themselves up for character assasination.

Sometimes I wonder why it's worth it. I'll likely never own another pit bull beyond what I have. I have to admit that the Malinois is a better match for me. I should just turn my back and let everyone get taken over and over by charismatic characters, and watch the breed go down the tubes at the hand of its own keepers. I'm starting to think that is a better option :evil:


Honest question:
Outside of giving snippets of your 'inside connection' of shady 'responsible' breeders and stating that you are 'going over to the darkside', what do YOU do for the breed other than joining message boards to preach to the choir? If you'll likely never own another bulldog and see this tubes going down the drain, why do you spend the energy that you do semi-exposing people (usually in PM's and IM's)? Like Diane Aimee, your heart may be in the right place (I have no idea if it is or not) but your seemingly sly way of delivery sucks.
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Postby odnarb » January 25th, 2006, 10:20 pm

concreterose wrote:Honest question:
Outside of giving snippets of your 'inside connection' of shady 'responsible' breeders and stating that you are 'going over to the darkside', what do YOU do for the breed other than joining message boards to preach to the choir? If you'll likely never own another bulldog and see this tubes going down the drain, why do you spend the energy that you do semi-exposing people (usually in PM's and IM's)? Like Diane Aimee, your heart may be in the right place (I have no idea if it is or not) but your seemingly sly way of delivery sucks.



Let's see, I've been involved in fighting BSL, donated to rescue (none of the rescues I've placed myself have been pit bulls), paid to have poor quality dogs speutered. I've given multiple breed presentations, including to a correctional facility that rescues and trains shelter dogs for placement. Brando has been on TV a few times, he's also the "Poster Boy" for a big annual K9/human blood drive for the Red Cross and the local emergency hospital. It's fun seeing his face around the city every February.

Most importantly, I have extremely well trained dogs that are the best ambassadors the breed could ask for. Watching Grant do well in obedience and beat Poodles, Border Collie, Shelties, Labs and Goldens at very large dog shows makes a definate impact on the people watching "that pit bull."

Something else to consider are the contributions to the breed that people make by not breeding. I have two dogs that people would have loved to breed to for pedigrees alone. I had a veterinarian offter to tack Grant's floating testicle and "nobody would ever know." Some of my biggest contributions to the breed have been me NOT acting upon peer pressure.

Yes, I do warn people about shady characters in PMs. Next time you get chummy with somebody (that had their dogs removed by AC due to neglect) in your town on the board you moderate, I'll make sure I just announce it on the board and let the fit hit the shan. Sound like a good plan?

Since I've added my breed biography, how about yours?
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Postby mnp13 » January 25th, 2006, 10:39 pm

Aimee, my post was not meant as an attack, it is just very frusterating to me when people talk about 'a kennel' that does xyz, but doesn't name them. Especially when that kennel or breeder is being held up as a model for others to aspire to.

It is the Diane Jessup thing all over again. 1/4 of the people think she is the messiah of the Pit Bull world. 1/4 of the people don't know what to think or just don't care. 1/4 of the people have strong opinions but don't voice them. 1/4 of the people think she is full of crap and aren't afraid to say it. (*counts* yup, that's 4 quarters)

I am happy to say I am part of that final 1/4 - though in reality I think it is a far far far smaller percentage of people who were willing to stand up.

I guess if you don't want to name names, why bother to bring it up? If I don't know who is hiding all this bad stuff, how can I speak up?

From over here where I am, Big Blue Kennel is a responsible breeder. From over where you are, Big Blue Kennel is a crap hole that hides behind a website and fake testimonials. But unless you tell me that it is Big Blue Kennels that you are referring to, how can you be mad that I still think they are great?

See what I mean?
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Postby concreterose » January 25th, 2006, 10:48 pm

odnarb wrote:
Yes, I do warn people about shady characters in PMs. Next time you get chummy with somebody (that had their dogs removed by AC due to neglect) in your town on the board you moderate, I'll make sure I just announce it on the board and let the fit hit the shan. Sound like a good plan?

Don't do me any favors. I could care less to hear your vicious gossip. Not my style, bad karma. I like living a quiet and peacable life and being able to sleep at night.

Since I've added my breed biography, how about yours?

I do my part in my space, no worries there. I have no reason nor desire to prove anything to you by comparing resumes on the internet; it's just not that serious to me... also, I'm not the one that puts my mouth on any and everybody. I'm not into mind games either, choose someone else to play with 'cause I ain't biting. I also see you felt the need to call for backup... no need, I'm done with this topic, I've said my piece and I'm through. :wink:
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Postby Karen » January 25th, 2006, 10:52 pm

odnarb wrote:If anyone else had shown up on the scene in early 2000, then 3 years later did a breeding where they SAID they did x-rays and read them themselves, they would be crucified. That's just palin crazy, now breeders are good as good as veterinary radiologists?


Well I was being big time pressured to breed Bug to Hemi in 2000. Him a pup with temperment issues. He was so damn beautiful it made you hurt to look at him though. He died and Bug was spayed, but yeah I can see the fallout if it had ever happened.

odnarb wrote:There are some breeders that get a green light for about anything they do, and it makes me very, very puzzled and sad.


They aren't.

odnarb wrote:I went and visited one of the sweethearts in the breed at their home last year. This person is often held up as the picture of responsible. They had 12 or more dogs, yet only 6 TINY kennels. Where were the rest of the dogs? They live in crates. And the kennels that I saw were filthy and there were feces everywhere. Friends have reported this to me many times with other reputatble breeders. It's becoming commonplace.


I live with the sad reality of this place every day. I told you what you would find. Today is the countdown to the end for the dog from this kennel. He growled and showed teeth as he was bug eyed thinking he was in trouble. All I was doing was shoving him in a crate. The last straw. He has an appt. next week and I think Kelly is at peace with it finally.


odnarb wrote:This kind of crap happens over and over and over, and I'm absolutely angry and disgusted. Everyone looks the other way, because they produce "pretty" dogs, titles, big wins, whatever, but don't actually look at the whole picture. There have been more incidents, but I don't have time to get into all of them.


There are many. I tell you what though there are only 2 people left in the breed I will get another dog from. Ever. At the top of that list is Ruth Kramer.




odnarb wrote:The last year has left me angry and jaded, and I don't think I'll even have another pit bull again. The breed as it should be is lost, but everyone continues to applaud the half assed attempts that are more self serving than for the breed itself.


I guess I have to take some of the blame for Nic feeling like this. Every time Cuddles has an episode, or Tes' meds were changed I told her. Every time he charged one of us because he couldn't SEE I told her. She has to see his breeder at shows and put up with her. I hope to God I never meet her in person.
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Postby Karen » January 25th, 2006, 10:55 pm

mnp13 wrote:Aimee, my post was not meant as an attack, it is just very frusterating to me when people talk about 'a kennel' that does xyz, but doesn't name them. Especially when that kennel or breeder is being held up as a model for others to aspire to.

I guess if you don't want to name names, why bother to bring it up? If I don't know who is hiding all this bad stuff, how can I speak up?

From over here where I am, Big Blue Kennel is a responsible breeder. From over where you are, Big Blue Kennel is a crap hole that hides behind a website and fake testimonials. But unless you tell me that it is Big Blue Kennels that you are referring to, how can you be mad that I still think they are great?

See what I mean?


Want names? I'll HAPPILY give names and get attacked again and have my kids called names and dragged through the mud. She's 18 now and really mad at Kim Allison of RoKi Reds. The rednose puppy peddler that produces bad temperments, day blindness with regularity, and kinked tails with an oh well.
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Postby Karen » January 25th, 2006, 10:59 pm

concreterose wrote:
odnarb wrote:
Yes, I do warn people about shady characters in PMs. Next time you get chummy with somebody (that had their dogs removed by AC due to neglect) in your town on the board you moderate, I'll make sure I just announce it on the board and let the fit hit the shan. Sound like a good plan?

Don't do me any favors. I could care less to hear your vicious gossip. Not my style, bad karma. I like living a quiet and peacable life and being able to sleep at night.

Since I've added my breed biography, how about yours?

I do my part in my space, no worries there. I have no reason nor desire to prove anything to you by comparing resumes on the internet; it's just not that serious to me... also, I'm not the one that puts my mouth on any and everybody. I'm not into mind games either, choose someone else to play with 'cause I ain't biting. I also see you felt the need to call for backup... no need, I'm done with this topic, I've said my piece and I'm through. :wink:


Backup? Gee you banned me on the other board. Funny that. Why don't you go worship at the altar of the mighty "respectable" RoKi Reds?

You let a troll on your board and ban me for asking it a question and showing the posters what she does for entertainment. How fun.

I'm no one's back up I joined the board early today but had work to do and never asked to be off moderation. I was here before the posts about the responsible breeders, not that it's any business of yours.
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Postby Romanwild » January 25th, 2006, 11:02 pm

IMO this thread is now off-topic.

Let's get back on topic or you can start another thread using civil debate techniques. :thumbsup: :D
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Postby odnarb » January 25th, 2006, 11:05 pm

concreterose wrote:I also see you felt the need to call for backup... no need, I'm done with this topic, I've said my piece and I'm through. :wink:



If you mean Karen, she found the place on her own, probably from an announcement on a large mailing list. So, please don't think that the new influx of people are my 'backup' against anyone or anything.

Sorry, I've only sent links to Lora and Dani, and neither of them have joined. Is it so hard to believe that there is more than one person sick of what is happening?


Romanwild wrote:IMO this thread is now off-topic.

Let's get back on topic or you can start another thread using civil debate techniques. :thumbsup: :D



Saw this after my last post. I'll drop it for now.
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Postby JCleve86 » January 25th, 2006, 11:55 pm

This whole thing is what is getting me down. I do have my opinions and it's only natural for folks to have conflicts at times...but it happens way too much in this breed. Maybe it happens everywhere and I just don't know it because I've not been involved with other breed groups?

I don't know. Somebody better buy me a beer before I go insane.


(Hey...I can have one in Canada, alright???)
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Postby mnp13 » January 25th, 2006, 11:57 pm

JCleve86 wrote:Somebody better buy me a beer before I go insane.


Here... I won't tell. I promise.

:beerChug:

Actually, martinis are MUCH better

:martini:

Or, you can drink like Charles does

:wine:

Your choice! :wink:
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Postby cheekymunkee » January 25th, 2006, 11:59 pm

Here ya go little sister. Have a Shiner Winter Ale.

Back on topic ya want this? Jessup is a jerk!! :D
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Postby Darlazmum » January 26th, 2006, 12:17 am

AYE!
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Postby JCleve86 » January 26th, 2006, 12:34 am

mnp13 wrote:
JCleve86 wrote:Somebody better buy me a beer before I go insane.


Here... I won't tell. I promise.

:beerChug:

Actually, martinis are MUCH better

:martini:

Or, you can drink like Charles does

:wine:

Your choice! :wink:


I'll take a martini while I can taste it, and than drink Charles-fashion. Fabulous. Oh no....now I really DO want a drink....or six.
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Postby satanscheerleader » January 26th, 2006, 12:37 am

I think we are all due for a good stiff drink. :shock:
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Postby Emi » January 26th, 2006, 9:02 am

I was hoping after a few days of drama this would all die down like most things do ...


Ok , if you have some issues with some breeders/handlers with how they do their breeding , you state you know of some that have bad conditions for their dogs ...

Please why don't you come out with it , let us all figure it out for ourselves ... other wise let's go on an try to do some thing constructive for our dogs cause in the end it will come out some where down the road just like with Diane Jessup .
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Postby matrix » January 26th, 2006, 5:50 pm

Hey Emi,
Yall can come over to MatrixRock anytime to play with the dogs have a cookout talk advanced imaging technology and genetics ;-)

We even have two dogs in houston too!
:D
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Postby Emi » January 26th, 2006, 5:53 pm

Hey Scot sounds like fun :)

My Father in law's PhD is sorta well hrm's can't remember the name of it , but he worked 30 years making different breeds of corn , holy moly you should see that mans garden .. lol ..
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