Submissive Urination

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Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 10:36 am

Hello again!! Back a few months ago Knuckles started with submissive urination. The first time he did it was when my older dog Teddy (he is Top Dog in my house) was sick (one of the fosters brought a bad cold into my house) and we were trying to take his temperature. Knuckles came along side of us and pee'd on the floor. With the holiday stress it seemed to become more frequent so I thought we had to go back to potty training basics. We are still having accidents. With having a 4 1/2 y/o and a 20 month old my house is quite chaotic. I have been trying to get everyone to tone down the craziness which I am sure is making him a little nuts. With being neutered last Monday his demodectic mange which I did not know he had came out.

Please note - I have had dogs my whole life. I just have not had these types of issues to deal with. Part of Knuckles problems may stem from being taken from his mother so young. We estimate he was taken from his mother at 2-3 weeks old since he came to me at 4 weeks and was already returned from a foster home. I am also not oblivious to the fact that my house is overwhelming and is probably causing some of the problems.

Ok now that everybody knows I am nutz......Any advice???
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
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Postby Maryellen » January 10th, 2006, 11:24 am

hehehe.. the best way to help curb sub peeing is to not look at knuckles when you come home, dont talk to him, dont be all happy.. this will slowly help with the urination.. tell everyone in the house to not greet him when they first come in, or look him in the eye as sometimes the greeting and looking will cause the dog to urinate..(my gsd is a super sub urination girl) so i dont even say hi to her or look at her when i first get home. i get home, dont look at her, let all the dogs out, go outside with them, after she pees then i say hello.it took a little while, but it worked. i would also see if knuckles has a urinary infection as well if he is peeing more so.. at his age, he wont be 100% housebroken anyway until he is at least 9months old, by then his muscles will be fully developed.. so it could just be his age too
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Postby mnp13 » January 10th, 2006, 11:43 am

Sorry if I missed something, but how old is Knuckles?

My frist stop would be at the vet to check for a UTI. He obviously has some health issues related to stress, as shown by the mange and you are probably right that that has something to do with it.

What are the usual circumstances of him peeing? Is it consistant?
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Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 11:44 am

Maryellen wrote:i would also see if knuckles has a urinary infection as well if he is peeing more so.. at his age, he wont be 100% housebroken anyway until he is at least 9months old, by then his muscles will be fully developed.. so it could just be his age too


When I took him to the vet he urinated all over the floor and at that time she ran a test and everything came back ok.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 12:11 pm

mnp13 wrote:Sorry if I missed something, but how old is Knuckles?

My frist stop would be at the vet to check for a UTI. He obviously has some health issues related to stress, as shown by the mange and you are probably right that that has something to do with it.

What are the usual circumstances of him peeing? Is it consistant?


Knuckles is almost 6 months old.

Well I will say if my husband or I have an adult temper tantrum over what one of the kids do he will pee from the yelling.
When my sisters dog was here he was peeing all over. He has pee'd next to my side of the bed 2 times.

My problem is I can be an anxious person at times and I think he is very good at picking up my energy. A lot of the problems started when we began obedience training. Prior to training he was treated like the baby. I carried him everywhere and did everything for him because when he came to me he was so sick and depressed and I almost lost him. So when I started training him I had to now be the trainer and I think that is what put him in a tail spin. Although he did very well and excelled at training he would shake during it. I mentioned it to the trainer and she didn't say much at all. I have been obedience training my dogs for many years. My older guy is trained in advanced and knows hand commands. But I knew Knuckles was different and I loosened up a lot with him trying to make it fun as opposed to being tough.

I know you are going to read this and say "OH MY". But I am not perfect but I try to do what is best for everyone in my home and try to be flexible in the process.

One other thing to consider is that he was confiscated during a drug raid so prior to me I do not know what he went through. Although thankfully he was only there for a short time in his life.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
I live here
 
Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby Maryellen » January 10th, 2006, 12:16 pm

maybe he was afraid of the trainer? did you take him out to every place when you got him after he got better?? he could also just be a very sensitive dog and picks up on things quicker.. i would start trying the not looking him in the eye, and not saying hello to him when you come home to let him out for potty.. take him out matter of factly, and ignore him until he pees outside, then say hi.. it will take some time, but it should work.. tell everyone to not look at him or say hi as he is a happy pee-r, and that they have to help you.. it will take some time but it worked for my gsd.
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Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 12:23 pm

Maryellen wrote:maybe he was afraid of the trainer? did you take him out to every place when you got him after he got better?? he could also just be a very sensitive dog and picks up on things quicker.. i would start trying the not looking him in the eye, and not saying hello to him when you come home to let him out for potty.. take him out matter of factly, and ignore him until he pees outside, then say hi.. it will take some time, but it should work.. tell everyone to not look at him or say hi as he is a happy pee-r, and that they have to help you.. it will take some time but it worked for my gsd.


The class was in a group setting. He could have been scared of the whole experience. I guess what is good for my other two dogs may not be good for him. I have tried to get him out and socialized as much as possible.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
I live here
 
Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby Maryellen » January 10th, 2006, 12:29 pm

keep socializing him.. its very very important.. take him places and treat him to show that the places are good, like petco/ the vet, parks for walks, etc... you must expose him to lots of stuff so that he will be used to it. once his mange heals get him into the agility class, it will also boost his confidence too..
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Postby mnp13 » January 10th, 2006, 1:06 pm

luvmyangels wrote:My problem is I can be an anxious person at times and I think he is very good at picking up my energy. A lot of the problems started when we began obedience training. Prior to training he was treated like the baby. I carried him everywhere and did everything for him because when he came to me he was so sick and depressed and I almost lost him. So when I started training him I had to now be the trainer and I think that is what put him in a tail spin. Although he did very well and excelled at training he would shake during it. I mentioned it to the trainer and she didn't say much at all. I have been obedience training my dogs for many years. My older guy is trained in advanced and knows hand commands. But I knew Knuckles was different and I loosened up a lot with him trying to make it fun as opposed to being tough.


What style of training do you use? Compulsion, positive only, a mix of the two?

It sound to me like you may need to avoid any sort of negative reinforcement with him. Nothing but treats and praise. He's getting older, and his 'real' personality is starting to come out. He may just have an overly submissive personality and you'll have to ajust to that.

If he is 'shaking' during training then he is stressing to the extreme. What do you do when he starts shaking?
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Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 1:15 pm

mnp13 wrote:
luvmyangels wrote:My problem is I can be an anxious person at times and I think he is very good at picking up my energy. A lot of the problems started when we began obedience training. Prior to training he was treated like the baby. I carried him everywhere and did everything for him because when he came to me he was so sick and depressed and I almost lost him. So when I started training him I had to now be the trainer and I think that is what put him in a tail spin. Although he did very well and excelled at training he would shake during it. I mentioned it to the trainer and she didn't say much at all. I have been obedience training my dogs for many years. My older guy is trained in advanced and knows hand commands. But I knew Knuckles was different and I loosened up a lot with him trying to make it fun as opposed to being tough.


What style of training do you use? Compulsion, positive only, a mix of the two?

It sound to me like you may need to avoid any sort of negative reinforcement with him. Nothing but treats and praise. He's getting older, and his 'real' personality is starting to come out. He may just have an overly submissive personality and you'll have to ajust to that.

If he is 'shaking' during training then he is stressing to the extreme. What do you do when he starts shaking?


I believe in positive reinforcement training. For example, if we are in a heeling exercise I keep liver to my side so he stays with me (I found food enducement works best for him and doesn't stress him as much) and I constantly praise him. In fact, I always have a pocket of liver when I train.

Although I want to hug and kiss him when he shakes I do not want to reinforce his stress and fear of the situation. I end up praising him but not make a big deal of it.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
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Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby mnp13 » January 10th, 2006, 1:22 pm

luvmyangels wrote:Although I want to hug and kiss him when he shakes I do not want to reinforce his stress and fear of the situation. I end up praising him but not make a big deal of it.


Just ignore the shaking completely. Pretend he isn't doing it, and whatever you do, don't stop the training session because he starts stressing. If nothing else, do a few more things and then end it.

When you are done, just be done, no praise or cuddling. If he follows you around and leans on you or hides behind you, just step to the side. He needs to understand that the world will not eat him.

I'm speaking from experience on this one. At 4 years old, Ruby still has serious confidence issues.
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Postby luvmyangels » January 10th, 2006, 1:27 pm

mnp13 wrote:
luvmyangels wrote:Although I want to hug and kiss him when he shakes I do not want to reinforce his stress and fear of the situation. I end up praising him but not make a big deal of it.


Just ignore the shaking completely. Pretend he isn't doing it, and whatever you do, don't stop the training session because he starts stressing. If nothing else, do a few more things and then end it.

When you are done, just be done, no praise or cuddling. If he follows you around and leans on you or hides behind you, just step to the side. He needs to understand that the world will not eat him.

I'm speaking from experience on this one. At 4 years old, Ruby still has serious confidence issues.


I should have phrased it a little better but when he shakes I tell him it is ok not so much praising him to reinforce the problem. Although by saying anything is reinforcing the behavior. I should know better but sometimes when you are in the situation it is hard to do what you know is right. My bad.
I am "The Rat Queen".

Have a great day!! :)

Mary Ann & The Furry Bunch:
Cookie & Knuckles
Rabbit: Butterscotch
The Rattie Bunch: Girls: Noodle & Raisin Boys: Gus, Melvin, Oliver, & Toby
luvmyangels
I live here
 
Posts: 3449
Location: NY

Postby Maryellen » January 10th, 2006, 1:31 pm

by saying its ok you are reinforcing him.. do what mnp says and totally ignore the shaking, themore you reinforce it the worse he will become.. by petting or saying its ok you are telling him its ok to be scared and he will continue to do it.
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Postby mnp13 » January 10th, 2006, 1:34 pm

luvmyangels wrote:I should know better but sometimes when you are in the situation it is hard to do what you know is right. My bad.


Tell me about it... if my trainer and my boyfriend had a dollar for every time they told me not to reinforce her being neurotic they'd be millionaires and I'd be in the poor house!!!
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