Help before i totally flip out!!!!

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby Romanwild » May 23rd, 2006, 9:31 am

Cuda wrote:drop a duece


lol
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Postby katiek0417 » May 23rd, 2006, 9:59 am

Cuda wrote:Everyone here is spot on with what they are saying but i would like to add 1 more thing.

Alot of show people before they enter the ring want their dog to "empty out" for obvious reasons. They stick a unlit matchstick up the but a little bit which stimulates the dog to drop a duece.

Granted that isnt going to make her stop but at the end of the night or right before work if you have to crate her and leave or want to fall asleep peacefully that can be a lifesaver for you.


This is how I potty trained both my girls....

I posted it on another thread....it really works...now I do it before I compete with them...
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Postby SisMorphine » May 23rd, 2006, 10:00 am

How long after you match them do the poop?
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 10:13 am

A minute at the most. They REALLY do not like it. I tried to only match a few times. I gave her a chance outside first, and if after 30 minutes she did not poop I went back in, matched, then took her out again.

I imagine that too often could cause irritation. I would not rely on it long term.

I think I only matched 10 times total? She started getting it after that, and after a month would go within 2-3 minutes without a match. Now she goes right away at home.
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 11:15 am

How 'bout regular ol' training, rather than quick fix advice that could be harmful in the wrong hands, (or maybe even the right hands).
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Postby msvette2u » May 23rd, 2006, 11:20 am

When on vacation and needing for our dogs to go quicker than they'd like, we get out a tennis ball or something, or even run WITH them, anything to make them physically move. It stimulates their tract as fast as anything. I'd be afraid to shove anything up their a$$!!!
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 11:32 am

msvette2u wrote:When on vacation and needing for our dogs to go quicker than they'd like, we get out a tennis ball or something, or even run WITH them, anything to make them physically move. It stimulates their tract as fast as anything. I'd be afraid to shove anything up their a$$!!!


whew . . . when I first started to read your post, I was sweating out where you were headed with "we get out a tennis ball . . . ", lol

I agree with you. There are many other ways to get a dog to do their business, although it may not be the minute you want them to---that are much safer and more reasonable.

Like I said, my girl had a potty training regression and was going fairly regularly in my house rather than outside, but with time and patience, the problem eventually resolved . . . without doing anything bizarre to her.
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Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 11:32 am

if someone stuck a extinguished match up my butt i would kill them..

i agree with A-bull.. just some basic training to poop outside.. while some dogs after eating will go right away, some wont.. it all depends on when the dog will poop after eating.. right away or a few hours later..

consistant training the old fashioned way of taking the dog out on leash and throwing a party as soon as the poop is done is the way i go.. and i stay outside for as long as it takes, and if its too long back in the house on leash attached to me so that i can stop an accident from happening, but usually if the dog sees how happy you are that he/she pooped, they usually catch on quick
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 11:40 am

Maryellen wrote:if someone stuck a extinguished match up my butt i would kill them..

i agree with A-bull.. just some basic training to poop outside.. while some dogs after eating will go right away, some wont.. it all depends on when the dog will poop after eating.. right away or a few hours later..

consistant training the old fashioned way of taking the dog out on leash and throwing a party as soon as the poop is done is the way i go.. and i stay outside for as long as it takes, and if its too long back in the house on leash attached to me so that i can stop an accident from happening, but usually if the dog sees how happy you are that he/she pooped, they usually catch on quick



:bowDown:


You can also take her nose, stuff it in the poop and then smack her in the butt and shout "no" everytime she poops in the house, right??? Isn't that how they use to do it before people got a clue???

Just because quick fixes are avaiable and some people use them, that doesn't make them appropriate and harmless.
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 11:47 am

As much as i can see why you guys like to take the long slow route with the rettraining of potty training. How much damage do you think a tiny unlit match is going to do to their butt?? Common lets be serious now. Im sure all of our dogs have passed stuff MUCH bigger then a tiny matchstick. Maybe i should have clarified that you dont stick the side that gets lit in there the sulfer may have a damaging effect. but otherwise a little bit of cardboard is really doing them no harm. And personally even if it only take 3 days off the re-housebreaking. 3 days of $h1t spots on my carpet and smelly house is HUGE...
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 11:50 am

dogcrazyjen wrote:I had to match Tess when I got her. She was so used to being corrected when pooping whe would NOT go on leash. We do not have a fence, so too bad, she had to go on leash.

So we would match her inside, then go right outside and wait.

The important part was I clicked and treated while she was pooping. I named the behavior "poop". I praised her, and I ignored poop in the house, firguring it was my own fault for not watching her enough.

She now will poop on command, and is not afraid to poop on leash. Took a month, she had MAJOR trust issues.

For whining in the crate, I use a half a glass of water. I yell "That'll Do" while throwing the water in her face, then fill up the cup again and place it near the crate entrance.

If she started again, I stomped to the crate, yelled "That'll DO" and picked up the water and threw it, then refilled it and put it back.

I now do NOT have to do this more than once, and usually if I say "That'll Do" she shuts up. However, I try to make sure she is exercised, physically and mentally, and she has kongs, bones, etc in her crate. My dogs do not chew on kongs either, the point is to suck out the middles.

My dal/whippt mix has to run before he can poop. It took me a year of him pooping in the agility ring to figure out that the running in the ring made him need to poop, so now we run on leash for a few minutes several times a day at trials to make sure he empties before we go in the ring!

Be patient with her, treat her for pooping outside, use the crate paired with lots of outdoor exercise and training. She'll get it.


by the way . . . this stomping to the crate, yelling and throwing water in the dog's face is kind of an interesting "training" method, too . . .

Some dogs hate crates and never adjust to them. Try a gated-off room.

Don't crate advocates recommend making the crate a 'safe' quiet place that the dog is suppose to have positive associations with??
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 11:54 am

Cuda wrote:As much as i can see why you guys like to take the long slow route with the rettraining of potty training. How much damage do you think a tiny unlit match is going to do to their butt?? Common lets be serious now. Im sure all of our dogs have passed stuff MUCH bigger then a tiny matchstick. Maybe i should have clarified that you dont stick the side that gets lit in there the sulfer may have a damaging effect. but otherwise a little bit of cardboard is really doing them no harm. And personally even if it only take 3 days off the re-housebreaking. 3 days of $h1t spots on my carpet and smelly house is HUGE...


Passing stuff and putting things in a dog's rectum are a bit different.

Maybe the dog doesn't necessarily need to go when you want them to. Aren't there a bunch of people on here who feed raw because dogs are like wolves and that's how wolves eat? Does the alpha in the wolf pack run dog to dog with his matchstick after they all eat??
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:02 pm

from http://www.perfectpaws.com~


House Training Problems
* If your dog continues to soil her den, either you have left her there too long or the den may be too large an area for her. Take her to her toilet area more frequently or establish her den in an even smaller area.

* If she soils her bed, then you probably confined her there too long and she couldn't help herself; or she doesn't understand yet that this is her bed. Urinary tract problems and medical conditions can also cause your dog to soil her bed while she is sleeping.

* Some dogs drink excessive amounts of water out of boredom or habit and therefore have to urinate too frequently. If this is your dog, limit her water, take her to her toilet area more frequently and give her activities to do so she isn't bored.

* If the den is not properly introduced, your dog may feel as if it is a prison and show signs of anxiety, barking, chewing, whining, etc. Make sure your dog enjoys being in her den.
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 12:06 pm

Yeah thats all great on introduction to the crate, but at the same time the crate doesnt mean she gets to get away with murder in the crate. The dog if properly introduced to the crate wont see the crate as the reason for punishment or correction if those corrections are fair and well timed.
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Postby Maryellen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:09 pm

if you rub the dogs nose in it it wil then sneak away the next time it has to go poop, which could regress the dog further..

throwing a glass of water at a dog in a crate could be akin to a squirt bottle disipline.. however, the glass of water is more messier then just ignoring the dog while barking, and then immediately rewarding for being quiet..
everyone has their own way of training, but what works for one wont work for another..

if you dont want your dog to poop while being in a show, dont feed the dog before the show, feed after...

or, get a warm handcloth and rub the dogs butt.. that will stimulate them to poop..
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:14 pm

right, and for the people who are having trouble with their dogs whining and barking in their crate, I thought that was a good little blurb about why that may be---because I agree, if the crate is properly introduced, you shouldn't have a dog that barks or whines incessantly when crated.
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Postby Cuda » May 23rd, 2006, 12:15 pm

a-bull wrote:
Cuda wrote:As much as i can see why you guys like to take the long slow route with the rettraining of potty training. How much damage do you think a tiny unlit match is going to do to their butt?? Common lets be serious now. Im sure all of our dogs have passed stuff MUCH bigger then a tiny matchstick. Maybe i should have clarified that you dont stick the side that gets lit in there the sulfer may have a damaging effect. but otherwise a little bit of cardboard is really doing them no harm. And personally even if it only take 3 days off the re-housebreaking. 3 days of $h1t spots on my carpet and smelly house is HUGE...


Passing stuff and putting things in a dog's rectum are a bit different.

Maybe the dog doesn't necessarily need to go when you want them to. Aren't there a bunch of people on here who feed raw because dogs are like wolves and that's how wolves eat? Does the alpha in the wolf pack run dog to dog with his matchstick after they all eat??


Yes they are a "bit" different but not that much. In all reality if you jam something up your dogs butt on a daily basis for years it would almost definatly have some sort of adverse effect. But again were talking about a cardboard matchstick here. Theres videos all over the net of people cramming baseball bat's, soda bottles, hands, feet, (insert prefered adult toy here). Im sure the dog will survive with a matchstick the size of this ======= JUST FINE.

No but there arent any crates in the wolf pack either. And on top of that there arent any carpets that people have spent thousands of dollars on, hardwood floors that cost about the same, people who have to get up and goto work at 8 a.m. and cant wait the hour outside to calmly wait for their dog to drop a duece while the 3 kids are inside needing help with homework, need dinner, showers, work that has been brought home.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:16 pm

Quick fixes? Maybe you should be really READING what I wrote rather than reacting. I could stand outside for hours, and she would NOT poop. I used to play disc with her(running), then sit in a chair reading for over an hour with her on leash, and she would NOT poop. She had been disciplined for pooping, so she was NOT going to do it.

Matching made her poop so I could train her. I SAID the most important part was to reward the dog for pooping outside. But you have to get them to poop first.

I also said I did not rely on this method for long, did it the minimum I had to do, and mentioned it could be harmful if used long term.


As far as the crate, she was NOT crate trained when I got her. It took a long time for her to deal, slow training sessions, lots of meaty bones, feeding her in the crate, etc.

When I knew she was fine in the crate (ie would sleep all night, would go in willingly to eat, would nap in the crate peacefully) THEN I disciplined her for complaining. I did not jam her in a crate, and when she panicked threw water on her. If that wasn't clear, it would have been nice if you could have just asked, rather than being rude.

I cannot gate her in another room. Not all of us have those options. I have another dog who will fight with her, and children who could open a door on accident. She HAS to be in a crate. Also, she is more comfortable in a crate than in a room. If I try to lock her in a room, she will claw the door, the window blinds, and eat anything that is available, and whine, bark and scream to be let out. If I gated the room, she would easily jump over even two gates stacked, as well as be distructive. Crating is for her safety, and 90% of the time she goes in, lies down, and sleeps.

And I WAS trying to find her another home. Pit Bull rescue would not touch her because of her fear issues, and I could not find her another home. If I took her to the pound, she would be put down as a fear biter.

Dogs sometimes throw tantrums hoping to get what they want. I stomp down the hall and dramatically throw waters so she understands she will get NOTHING good from whining. As I said, she rarely bothers to try any more. Usually it is when something happens downstairs, like dogs playing, and she wants to join in.

I DO expect my dogs to be able to be in their crates quietly. I am not asking them to be in there all day, or without things to occupy them.

I did build good associations as much as I could with the crate. But she had to be crated because she was not housebroken. She had to be matched because she would not poop on leash, and I could not housebreak her until she pooped outside. I could not let her out of the crate for long until she pooped.

Sounds like you think all problems should be so simple that you can proceed perfectly positive at all times. Unfortunately, things do not work that way. I did what I could with the situation I had. I now have a pretty well adjusted dog considering where she started. She can be in the crate without panic, she poops outside on command, she can be outside off leash with a fabulous recall, she can now greet people without fear reactions, and be around other dogs without freaking, and is entering her first disc trial this weekend.


So tell me, if I managed to handle all the issues successfully, why the scornful comments on my training?
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Postby a-bull » May 23rd, 2006, 12:22 pm

Maryellen wrote:if you rub the dogs nose in it it wil then sneak away the next time it has to go poop, which could regress the dog further..

throwing a glass of water at a dog in a crate could be akin to a squirt bottle disipline.. however, the glass of water is more messier then just ignoring the dog while barking, and then immediately rewarding for being quiet..
everyone has their own way of training, but what works for one wont work for another..

if you dont want your dog to poop while being in a show, dont feed the dog before the show, feed after...

or, get a warm handcloth and rub the dogs butt.. that will stimulate them to poop..


I was using the 'nose rubbed in the poop' as an example of old training methods that don't always work and I agree, can cause a dog to regress further. I don't condone it what-so-ever.

The idea of the squirt bottle is that it isn't suppose to be obvious---the dog receives a negative stimilus as the result of an unwanted behavior. A glass of water certainly is a negative stimulus, but so is a hammer, lol---just seems to me the dog can easily make the connection between the negative stimulus and the person, (when using a glass of water), rather than the purpose behind using a squirt bottle---which is for the dog to make the association between the negative stimulus and their own behavior.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 23rd, 2006, 12:22 pm

Dogs can be very slowely and carefully introduced to the crate, they can choose to be in the crate, yet still throw a hissy fit if they want to be out for whatever reason ie another dog has a toy, dogs are playing loud, company comes, garbage truck goes by, etc.

Tallulah loves her crate, she will go in it when tired all on her own. But if Jack has a squeaky toy downstairs, if she hears my husband come home, she will have a cow. She needs to be able to have self control in the crate, same as all my other dogs.
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