OFFICIAL Bitework/Personal Protection Debate Thread

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 2:20 pm

babyreba wrote:I just wanted to add a quick note on aggression, a word that I think a lot of people are stuck on here . . .

Good post, and I agree.

Sis's Wally may be forcefully (ie., aggressively but not violently) correcting another dog in a way that unnerves some people. But that doesn't make Wally a violent or dangerous dogs.

I don't think anyone here was saying that it did? :|


There is appropriate and innappropriate aggression.

My point about aggression was that I don't think a dog that shows dominance aggression with humans (innappropriate), should ever be trained for bite work. That's my take on it.



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Postby babyreba » May 22nd, 2006, 2:24 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
babyreba wrote:I just wanted to add a quick note on aggression, a word that I think a lot of people are stuck on here . . .

Good post, and I agree.

Sis's Wally may be forcefully (ie., aggressively but not violently) correcting another dog in a way that unnerves some people. But that doesn't make Wally a violent or dangerous dogs.

I don't think anyone here was saying that it did? :|


There is appropriate and innappropriate aggression.

My point about aggression was that I don't think a dog that shows dominance aggression with humans (innappropriate), should ever be trained for bite work. That's my take on it.



~Lindsay~


Wasn't all about you. There are a lot of people posting on this thread and two people (not you) were posting about how their dogs had particular behaviors and noting that it could be considered aggressive behavior . . . I was making a general note on aggression and how it's being discussed here.

Not a note on Lindsay's posts.
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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 2:45 pm

LindsaySF wrote:There is appropriate and innappropriate aggression.

My point about aggression was that I don't think a dog that shows dominance aggression with humans (innappropriate), should ever be trained for bite work. That's my take on it.

If a dog is showing dominance towards humans that dog does not have enough dscipline. I used to think "bad dog, put it to sleep" but my eyes have been opened to the reality that it is simply a dog who has not been shown boundaries. And what's bitework? The highest form of obedience. What is obedience? Boundaries. So why can't a dog who just hasn't ever been put in it's place before one day be able to work up to doing bitework by being shown intense boundaries and discipline and being taught when it is actually appropriate to bite?
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Postby DemoDick » May 22nd, 2006, 2:52 pm

The purpose of the stick is to demonstrate that the dog can and will work under psychological and physical pressure without backing out and running.

In all honesty, the level of pressure that is put on most dogs in sport venues (Sch., Ring, PSA, Mondio, etc.) is pretty tame. The entire "fight" lasts about fifteen seconds. The dog is at almost no risk of injury and a good dog won't even flinch.

I'm sorry if people's feelings get hurt when they are told that they lack a basic understanding of dog behavior, but in this thread at least, it is true. Owning a dog, training a dog, even getting paid by other people to train dogs does not, IMO, make you a qualified trainer. I stand back and shake my head when I hear what passes as training information and behavioral analysis these days.

Saying and doing are two totally different things.

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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 5:49 pm

katiek0417 wrote:In a competition, you are testing the dog's ability to not only protect you...but also stand up against pressure...in PSA, a 38 caliber gun is fired twice during the bite during the carjacking scenario....the dog should not come off the bite just because it hears the gun....

This makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

So the purpose of the stick is to test the dog's confidence, and to be sure it obeys and does not let go of the decoy despite being struck?

I can understand why swinging the stick in its face, or over its head, firing guns, throwing buckets with rocks, etc will be used, and I would have no problem with it. But I still have moral objections to inflicting pain on the dog. I would think the other things would provide enough of a distraction to test the dog's obedience and confidence? :|

I could see the necessity of hitting the dog with the stick if you are training a police dog, where it may actually encounter such a thing in its job and must therefore be prepared. But I guess I just don't see how it's justified if bitework is being used as a sport? :|


babyreba wrote:I was making a general note on aggression and how it's being discussed here.

Not a note on Lindsay's posts.

Ok gotcha now. Sorry if I misunderstood. :)


SisMorphine wrote:If a dog is showing dominance towards humans that dog does not have enough dscipline. I used to think "bad dog, put it to sleep" but my eyes have been opened to the reality that it is simply a dog who has not been shown boundaries. And what's bitework? The highest form of obedience. What is obedience? Boundaries. So why can't a dog who just hasn't ever been put in it's place before one day be able to work up to doing bitework by being shown intense boundaries and discipline and being taught when it is actually appropriate to bite?

I was referring to dogs that despite extensive training, still display dominance aggression towards humans. I assumed that the average dog that was shown boundaries would not have this dominance problem. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

I am referring to dogs with dominance issues that have not responded to extensive training. There are some dogs that despite all the work you put into them, will never be 'fixed'. Perhaps they are rescues and have had their behaviors ingrained in them over a long period of time. Perhaps they were not neutered until a late age (or never neutered?). These are the types of dogs I was referring to. Some might consider the dominance/confidence they display to be a good thing, but in actuality it may make them dangerous. And the dog may see its trainer as alpha, but not other people. And this is where my concern lies...

I agree with you about a dog that has never had any form of training before and does not understand. Bitework training, or nearly any form of disciplined training, would be a good idea for such a dog.



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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 6:02 pm

mnp13 wrote:
dogcrazyjen wrote:If you had not, or if the decoy look alike did not handle it well, there could be another nail in the pit coffin.

And if you dropped your leash when a yappy little ankle biter ran up to your dog and started trouble, it would be another nail in the Pit coffin.

(Sorry if this is a little OT). I think this is something pit bull owners really have to watch out for actually. Any dog owner for that matter, though the pit bull will be the one to end up on the evening news...

Even if the yappy little dog started it, the pit bull might finish it. And the pit bull (and its owner) would get blamed.

Pit bull owners have to be more careful than owners of other breeds. Not just because of the traits of the breed (high prey drive, dog aggression, etc), but because of the media hypersensitivity to pit bull attacks. It's not fair but it's reality...


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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 6:07 pm

DemoDick wrote:The purpose of the stick is to demonstrate that the dog can and will work under psychological and physical pressure without backing out and running.

Thank you for this explanation as well. It is more clear to me now. I don't think I'll ever be morally comfortable with the stick because it does hurt the dog, even if only slightly. But at least now I see why it is used.


I'm sorry if people's feelings get hurt when they are told that they lack a basic understanding of dog behavior, but in this thread at least, it is true.

I am going to assume you aren't talking about me. :P

I freely admit I don't know too much about bitework (hence all the questions), but I do know a fair bit about dog behavior. Though I can't speak for others in this thread.

I agree with you though about the lack of knowledge of dog behavior nowadays. The ACO's I used to volunteer with often startled me in their ignorance... :(


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Postby SisMorphine » May 22nd, 2006, 6:40 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
DemoDick wrote:The purpose of the stick is to demonstrate that the dog can and will work under psychological and physical pressure without backing out and running.

Thank you for this explanation as well. It is more clear to me now. I don't think I'll ever be morally comfortable with the stick because it does hurt the dog, even if only slightly. But at least now I see why it is used.

I have a comparison to use regarding the use of hitting the dog with the stick, unfortunately it's not fit for the public family message board. Feel free to PM me if you want (no, it's nothing super scandalous, just not appropriate).
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Postby mnp13 » May 22nd, 2006, 7:21 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
Magnolia618 wrote:I'll tell Maggie that next time she attacks a child. lol

Huh? :|


~Lindsay~

I think Chea's point is that her dog knows the difference between a child and a tug toy. And also knows the difference between playing with an adult and playing with a child.

Ruby has a 'lovely' game that she plays with me. She grabs my arm and bites me... over and over and over and over. It is pretty much the only game she plays. It hurts and leaves me with bruises and welts. She only plays with people she knows, because she knows the difference.

Stable dogs know the difference, and dogs that are not stable shouldn't be around kids anyway.
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Postby mnp13 » May 22nd, 2006, 7:39 pm

LindsaySF wrote: could see the necessity of hitting the dog with the stick if you are training a police dog, where it may actually encounter such a thing in its job and must therefore be prepared. But I guess I just don't see how it's justified if bitework is being used as a sport?


Many people training for bitesport want their dogs to function in the real world. Should I ever be approached by a shady character who threatens me, I want Riggs to not only engage but to not let go until I tell him to.

Should I need to use him in this manner, the criminal will not be quietly subdued, but he will most likely scream, hit the dog, maybe kick him, etc. there is no way that I want Riggs to suddenly shy away from doing his job because he is afraid of being yelled at or hit. God forbid a gun go off, he needs to hold on - or continue towards the bite through the noise. I'd hope that he would hold on even if injured, as that may end up saving my life. The only way to make sure he won't is to train him not to.

does the stick hurt? Yup. So does the prong collar, and I use that as well. they are training tools, and just like any other training tool they can be used correctly or abused. Don't judge the actions of the responsible people by the actions of those who are irresponsible.

oh - and to clear up any confusion...

my statement that "aggression = fear" was all encompassing and made no sense. It was also incorrect and needs about a page of explaination about what I meant and in what curcumstances, etc etc. so please just ignore it and chalk it up to me posting when I'm way over tired and not paying attention to what I'm blathering on about. I edited my post as well.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 22nd, 2006, 8:28 pm

LindsaySF wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:In a competition, you are testing the dog's ability to not only protect you...but also stand up against pressure...in PSA, a 38 caliber gun is fired twice during the bite during the carjacking scenario....the dog should not come off the bite just because it hears the gun....

This makes sense. Thank you for the explanation.

So the purpose of the stick is to test the dog's confidence, and to be sure it obeys and does not let go of the decoy despite being struck?

I can understand why swinging the stick in its face, or over its head, firing guns, throwing buckets with rocks, etc will be used, and I would have no problem with it. But I still have moral objections to inflicting pain on the dog. I would think the other things would provide enough of a distraction to test the dog's obedience and confidence? :|

I could see the necessity of hitting the dog with the stick if you are training a police dog, where it may actually encounter such a thing in its job and must therefore be prepared. But I guess I just don't see how it's justified if bitework is being used as a sport? :|




I understand what you are saying...but many sport dogs, upon retirement, are turned into personal protection dogs...

If a dog is a personal protection dog, and GOD FORBID you are ever attacked, would you rather your dog come off a bite if the person fights back or hold on? Many criminals (and people alike) will say that if a dog bites them, they'd fight back...so, this scenario is not unlikely...I know what I'd rather have....

The sticks do not hurt...I've been hit with them. I probably inflict the same amount of pain when I used pinch collars and e-collars....I use them to train my dogs...not to hurt them...I have introduced them properly...just as the stick, jugs, gunfire, etc....

And OKAY, I just realized that I've basically said exactly what Michelle just said (and WELCOME BACK)!!!
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Postby LindsaySF » May 22nd, 2006, 8:41 pm

Repeating what Michelle said, but in a different way, is totally ok. :) I appreciate all the views on this.


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Postby Magnolia618 » May 24th, 2006, 6:28 pm

mnp13 wrote:
LindsaySF wrote:
Magnolia618 wrote:I'll tell Maggie that next time she attacks a child. lol

Huh? :|


~Lindsay~

I think Chea's point is that her dog knows the difference between a child and a tug toy. And also knows the difference between playing with an adult and playing with a child.

Ruby has a 'lovely' game that she plays with me. She grabs my arm and bites me... over and over and over and over.


HAHAHAHAHAH lol lol lol

I was just playing that with Maggie. I need to post pictures.
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Postby dogcrazyjen » May 24th, 2006, 7:09 pm

I guess I just feel if I need protection, I will buy a gun. If I want a companion, I will get a dog. I do not feel my life is more valuable than my dogs, that he should take pain, injury or death to protect me.

This is soley my opinion.
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Postby LindsaySF » May 24th, 2006, 7:26 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:I guess I just feel if I need protection, I will buy a gun. If I want a companion, I will get a dog. I do not feel my life is more valuable than my dogs, that he should take pain, injury or death to protect me.

This is soley my opinion.

Completely agreed Jen. :)


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Postby Leslie H » May 24th, 2006, 7:42 pm

My dog likes being hit w/the stick. It just fires her up more.
I know when my dogs play, they kick each other's butt's. They leave marks, they smack into furniture, they throw each other down. That's how they have a good time. Our dogs were bred for combat. Rough play and physical challenge, a battle, makes them happy, and eager for more.
Years back, Xanny viewed the stick as a threat, and came right off the bite. W/better training, she regards a stick as an invitation to the battle, just shake a clatter stick, snap a whip, and she's ready to go.
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Postby mnp13 » May 24th, 2006, 9:09 pm

dogcrazyjen wrote:I guess I just feel if I need protection, I will buy a gun. If I want a companion, I will get a dog. I do not feel my life is more valuable than my dogs, that he should take pain, injury or death to protect me.

This is soley my opinion.


And that's fine.

Last summer in Buffalo a man was mugged and died of his injuries on the sidewalk. When emergency services arrived, his dog was still on leash, still attached to his wrist.

I don't choose to be that guy.
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Postby ellie@ny » May 24th, 2006, 10:39 pm

Oh God,I know I should't reply,but I just had enough! :|
I don't know why is so hard to undertand that :
THESE DOGS ARE NOT MEAN,
THIS IS A SPORT,
AND THIS IS THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF OBEDIENCE...

I'm gonna hold myself back and the last thing I wan't to say is just check out those videos up here,or just check out this one :
http://www.madmaine.com/cpss/
You can see in the middle of the video,a dog has been sent to the guy,after the job,the dog licking him to death.......yeah he was sooooo mean to us too!!!The dogs has to THINK,and not just bite everyone!!!
I would never comment on something,what I've never seen in my life,or have no experience in it.I think It's just dumb.WE ALL DIFFERENT,HAVE A DIFFERENT LIFE,BUT PLZ THINK BEFORE YOU JUDGE ON SOMETHING!
I see some of you from NY,CT why don't you come at least once here http://www.pitbulltalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=3400 to see yourself what is going on?And maybe you can learn something new too?!
Be open minded It's not wrong for you! :wink:
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Postby Chris Fraize » May 24th, 2006, 11:28 pm

Well said Ellie. You are the rarest kind of dog owner. A dog owner with an open mind!

Safe training,
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Postby SisMorphine » May 25th, 2006, 7:45 am

GO ELLIE!!!
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