How do breeders fit in?

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby Tubular Toby » December 10th, 2012, 11:02 pm

Well, this could be a potentially loaded topic to start with, but might as well dive back in!

How do you see reputable breeders of pit bull type dogs? On one extreme you have people that think no pit bulls should be bred because of the over population problem as it is. On the other extreme, people believe that reputable breeders are what could potentially hold this breed together in the long term while BYB are destroying it by cross breeding, breeding ill tempered/structured dogs, etc.

I think this thread should mostly be about how you see the role of a REPUTABLE breeder and what criteria breeders need to meet for you to consider them reputable. We all know the damage done by BYB.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » December 11th, 2012, 7:27 am

I think we need the reputable breeders, otherwise, what are we left with? BYB's breeding for blues, and big heads, and giant size with no regard to PROPER APBT temperament. Also, the responsible breeders often help with rescue, and god knows their dogs aren't the ones filling the shelters.

I love rescue, but I really don't know if I'll get my next dog from one. I lucked out with Inara in getting a dog that's so human-oriented, but still has a fiery side to her that just makes her flashy when she competes. Yes, she's been a pain in the ass, but I've enjoyed it. I really can't imagine having a pit bull that didn't fire up at other dogs! lol

What makes a reputable breeder? I think we have a list here somewhere of what PBT considers reputable. For me, it's somebody who does health testing - OFA or PennHip, eyes, and any other issues that may commonly arise in the breed that can be tested for. They will have titles/certificates out the wazoo on their dog, and I'd prefer they be varied. Not just a CGC or TT. Weight pull, rally, agility, expand outwards! I believe ALL puppies need to be spoken for before a breeding ever occurs. I believe care should be given to make sure the sire's and dam's faults/benefits complement each other and balance out. I believe that breedings should be very infrequent, and not the same sire/dam each time - breeding should be to better the breed and using the same pair each time won't better it, it will keep it the same. I believe proper temperament should override physical appearances - those will follow the temperament.

I'm sure there's more but it's early. :-)
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Postby TinaMartin » December 11th, 2012, 10:12 am

What Liz said. I would hate for the only thing left of the breed to be back yard miss bred "junk". While I would be happy to give a Pitty that comes from a junk breeder a home through rescue I wish that they didn't exist at all.
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Postby furever_pit » December 22nd, 2012, 12:01 am

I agree with a lot of what Liz said.

I don't personally think that all puppies need to be spoken for before a breeding is done. A lot of the breeders I know (of all different breeds) will only accept 4 or 5 deposits before a breeding just in case it is a small litter. However, if there is NO demand for your litter then that is something to think about as well, obviously.

I don't think that pet dogs should be bred, at all...apart from health tested companion breeds and even then you can do something with them, nose work or agility or something. But particularly in bull breeds, there is no reason to be breeding pet quality dogs. That doesn't necessarily mean that all working quality dogs are titled (some people don't trial or just suck as handlers) - the sire of both of my dogs is an untitled working quality dog.
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Postby pitsnok » December 23rd, 2012, 4:29 am

In my Oklahoma area, we have apparently finally gotten in to the ambully craze... (okay I guess I might just be uninformed...but it's new to me anyway!) and a few weeks ago on facebook I came across several breeders that are around my age. They were all active in showing with bully organizations and travel to do "dog things" outside of just being pets, but for whatever reason it still put a bitter taste in my mouth. Probably because of the generic tough guy dog names, along with the word "head piece", selling a dog who is "a proven stud/bitch" just... because, etc. I don't have a problem with breeders who health test and rarely breed, and actually know what they're doing. But I can't help feeling sour about those who excitedly make comments about "there are gonna be monster pups" and things like that... even though I do LOVE a well-bred ambully. it's just... not about the glamour of it, as I feel like so many people think.
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Postby WolfMoon » December 25th, 2012, 11:55 pm

Liz said it best, IMO. While it's ideal for an entire litter to be spoken for, it's not necessarily going to happen and folks may/may not back out in the end. This can be good, however, for the folks who didn't realize a particular breeding was happening and want a pup and are a good match for said pup.

Either way, we need reputable breeders who breed infrequently, health test and title with complimentary dogs who balance out faults.
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Postby mnp13 » December 26th, 2012, 1:42 am

I agree that all puppies should be spoken for. If the average litter is 6 dogs, then have six deposits. A deposit does NOT guarantee a puppy!! It guarantees you that IF a puppy matches your desired traits and drives, that you will get said puppy. I know someone who had a litter and it ended up smaller than expected and all female. So everyone who only wanted a male was out, as were the people who there just weren't enough puppies for.

In my opinion repeat litters are an absolute no-no. If you are ONLY breeding to better the breed, then the puppies should be better than the parents. That's the point of the breeding in the first place! So, if the puppies are better than the parents, then why would you re-breed the parents? Shouldn't you breed the puppies instead, since they were improvements on the parents. Can't have it both ways, if the puppies were better than the parents, breed them. If the puppies weren't better than the parents, then why is the breeding being repeated?

I also agree with the titles and certifications. I am not a big fan of "the dog is from x lines" or "the dog's parents had x titles" or "the dog is working quality." If the dog is worth breeding, title and certify the darn thing. And if you can't be bothered to do so, then don't be bothered to breed. I just love it when people say "showing is too expensive" if you're doing it right, you're not making any money on the litter either, so if you don't have the money to prove the dogs are worth breeding, you need to re-think things anyway.
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Postby TheRedQueen » December 26th, 2012, 11:28 am

I ran across a breeder the other day that doesn't do health testing. At all. Not a bully breed...but I was shocked. They do a lot with their pups and dogs...and each puppy that goes home is clicker trained and well mannered and socialized. But they don't spend the $$$ on health testing...because there is no test that is 100%...blah blah blah. So I don't get it...you're spending the time to get these pups well-trained/socialized, but not healthy?
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Postby furever_pit » December 26th, 2012, 1:45 pm

mnp13 wrote:In my opinion repeat litters are an absolute no-no. If you are ONLY breeding to better the breed, then the puppies should be better than the parents. That's the point of the breeding in the first place! So, if the puppies are better than the parents, then why would you re-breed the parents? Shouldn't you breed the puppies instead, since they were improvements on the parents. Can't have it both ways, if the puppies were better than the parents, breed them. If the puppies weren't better than the parents, then why is the breeding being repeated?


Good point. I had never thought about that.
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Postby SisMorphine » December 29th, 2012, 8:51 am

On the other end, I can't stand breeders who health test to the hilt and try to sell pups on that and that alone, but have done nothing else with their dogs (and sorry, I'm a snob, I don't count conformation titles as doing anything other than wasting money on BS politics). I, personally, don't necessarily need to see a title on the dogs that I'm interested in, but I do need to see them work and/or see proof of their work. And though the whole "but the lines" thing is generally a cop out, there IS something to be said about it. I never saw Teeny's mom work, but the pups that bitch has produced have been awesome. I just wish the other owners would work the dogs as proof.

I think that good breeders are very important in keeping good dogs going. Like Liz said, if we don't have those focusing on healthy dogs (both mentally and physically) then we're left with BYB dogs. Sure, some come out great, but that isn't the norm, unfortunately.

Also, I had one litter, and had one dog from that litter who got bounced around a bit due to drugs (fucking drugs). But she never ended up in a shelter or a rescue. She was either at my house, at my work, or with my friend (who eventually ended up keeping her because she is her momma's clone <3). A good breeder ALWAYS takes responsibility for what they put out there.

I believe in rescue, I will rescue again (and can't wait to be able to foster again), but I am a huge supporter of breeders who actually give a crap about what they're putting out.
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Postby Malli » December 29th, 2012, 5:35 pm

This has come up in my mind, since Uzi(from quality show breeder/lines) came to us.

I can't see into the future, but I can see what I have in front of me. At Uzi's age, Oscar(came from a friend who had a litter) had already started to show issues with his health - that "tree" grew and branched : more health related issues commonly passed through genetics. We lucked out with temperment, but then again, a major factor in his litter was his parent's temperment (though still a byb, I know they had good intentions).

I look at Uzi (from quality show lines), I literally watch him MOVE and it looks effortless. His coat and skin are healthy with little effort. His breeder is an authority on the breed, he takes care to look at structure and conformation, and he looks health issues that some might consider minor and is not happy. It has never been so clear to me that good genes and someone with knowledge selecting them make a huge difference.

I adore both my dogs, and love them for their individuality.

I look back, and comparing at the two of them, I realize how stressful it is to have a dog who is unwell, even if the problems aren't life threatening. More then that, what Oscar himself must live with on a day to day basis.

Breeding can be a crapshoot, but good breeding can also make a world of difference.

I'm not sure that I'd be prepared that take on the possibilities that can come with an unkown heritage again.
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Postby TinaMartin » December 31st, 2012, 10:19 am

SisMorphine wrote:On the other end, I can't stand breeders who health test to the hilt and try to sell pups on that and that alone, but have done nothing else with their dogs (and sorry, I'm a snob, I don't count conformation titles as doing anything other than wasting money on BS politics). I, personally, don't necessarily need to see a title on the dogs that I'm interested in, but I do need to see them work and/or see proof of their work. And though the whole "but the lines" thing is generally a cop out, there IS something to be said about it. I never saw Teeny's mom work, but the pups that bitch has produced have been awesome. I just wish the other owners would work the dogs as proof.

I think that good breeders are very important in keeping good dogs going. Like Liz said, if we don't have those focusing on healthy dogs (both mentally and physically) then we're left with BYB dogs. Sure, some come out great, but that isn't the norm, unfortunately.

Also, I had one litter, and had one dog from that litter who got bounced around a bit due to drugs (fucking drugs). But she never ended up in a shelter or a rescue. She was either at my house, at my work, or with my friend (who eventually ended up keeping her because she is her momma's clone <3). A good breeder ALWAYS takes responsibility for what they put out there.

I believe in rescue, I will rescue again (and can't wait to be able to foster again), but I am a huge supporter of breeders who actually give a crap about what they're putting out.

Thank you for being THIS kind of breeder Sis! Sorsha is exactly what Charles and I wanted and I know that until the day she dies that you stand behind her. I also know that (just as it should be) you would rip her away from us in a hot minute if we didn't do right by her. Everything we went through to get her was WELL worth it! That being said I will also continue to adopt like we did with Caesar.
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Postby DemoDick » January 7th, 2013, 11:27 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I ran across a breeder the other day that doesn't do health testing. At all. Not a bully breed...but I was shocked. They do a lot with their pups and dogs...and each puppy that goes home is clicker trained and well mannered and socialized. But they don't spend the $$$ on health testing...because there is no test that is 100%...blah blah blah. So I don't get it...you're spending the time to get these pups well-trained/socialized, but not healthy?


There are two types of health testing, "paper tests" and "working tests".

Paper tests are just that. They are pieces of paper that certify that the dog met a certain criteria that is supposed to correlate with proper structure, health, working ability, etc.

Working tests are ongoing evaluations of the dog's real world abilities. They never end, as long as the dog is doing the actual work and the assessment is objective and fair.

If a breeder never certifies hips, but their dogs all work in weight pull, agility, bite work, whatever, well into old age, I don't have a problem. Hip certs don't get the dog over the obstacle, their *actual* hips do. However, a lot of breeders who opt to not "paper test" do so because it's expensive and can illustrate problems in their dogs that should disqualify them from breeding (no puppy $$$$ as a result).

Obviously the ideal is a breeder who not only paper tests/certifies everything imaginable, but who also proves their dogs with actual work, constantly assessing the dogs over the course of their entire working career and retirement. However, I personally value the working test over the paper one.

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 8th, 2013, 6:42 am

The problem with working tests is that people don't wait to see if their dogs can work into middle to old age before breeding, so you may be breeding a dog that can work until 4 or 5 but then falls apart after that. Sometimes a paper test can show you better long-term results.

That being said, if I had to choose, I would also take the work-tested line.
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Postby Malli » January 8th, 2013, 10:39 pm

exactly, Liz.

For instance, if an Am Staff carrier the Cerebellar ataxia gene, and was bred at 3 yrs and became ataxic at 5 while working, that would be no help!

Some health tests do indicate working ability, because a dog with bad hips, has bad hips, working will only make them worse, they would be bad without the work as well.

Not that I disagree with working titles.
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