Help evaluating ingredients?

Food, Fitness and how to keep them healthy.

Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 31st, 2011, 4:46 pm

My friend who owns a local pet boutique, who only carries high-end kibbles, is having the rep from "Best Breeds" dog food come to one of her events. Their website is here: http://www.bestbreed.com . The food is only rated two stars, and seriously? Breed specific kibble? Well, I told my friend that this food isn't anywhere close to the Orijen, TOTW, Blue, etc that she carries, and she just told me that the rep from Best Breeds is interested in talking to me. :shock:

I know it's crap food, but I'm not able to enunciate WHY it's crap food. Help please??? Their dog food page is here: http://www.bestbreed.com/dog-diets

Any help would be greatly appreciated!
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 31st, 2011, 6:28 pm

While it is definitely better than Dad's, Ol' Roy or Beneful, (it's not total crap), I'm sure the price that it will retail for will not be in line with the quality.

For example...I've switched my pack over to the Tractor Supply Company brand food, 4Health (from Diamond Naturals). This is a relatively cheap food, but the quality is good...with this many dogs, I settle for good quality at a low price.

I compared the ingredients of the Working Dog food from Best Breed (that's what I'd be interested in, if I were shopping for their food...as Odd and Score both eat large quantities of high-energy food). They can't even stack up well to the TSC 4Health food...which has chicken and chicken meal and chicken fat in the first five ingredients. The 4Health also has two different grains (rice and barley) rounding out the top five, unlike the Best Breed which has rice TWICE in the first five ingredients.

That is very telling to me...that they can't stack up against a non-premium food from Tractor Supply!
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Postby fenella » October 31st, 2011, 8:39 pm

The Royal Canin breed specific foods are very popular. Not that I would feed it, but maybe that is why they are trying this marketing trick. :|
Some say beet pulp is linked to bloat, but I've heard this is a myth. Lots of foods have it, but usually not the high quality ones.
I wouldn't say it is a terrible diet, compared to a lot of the crap out there, but I'd like to see some probiotics, some cranberries or other antioxidant-rich fruits (it does have tomato, but that's it).
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Postby mnp13 » October 31st, 2011, 10:06 pm

How long do I have to write it all up for you? lol
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 1st, 2011, 8:16 am

Thanks for the feedback thus far! Very helpful!

Michelle, I don't have anything scheduled right now, so no rush! Have fun if you decide to do it! LOL
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Postby mnp13 » November 1st, 2011, 10:19 am

Let's see... here are the first ten ingredients in a bunch of their foods:

1 - Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Egg Product, Pearled Barley, Menhaden Fish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Flavor,

2 - Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Egg Product, Pearled Barley, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Flavor,

3 - Chicken Meal, Pearled Barley, Oatmeal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Sorghum, Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Menhaden Fish Meal,

4 - Chicken Meal, Brown Rice, Oatmeal, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Natural Chicken Flavor, Menhaden Fish Meal, Lecithin,

5 - Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Dried Beet Pulp, Sorghum, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Egg Product, Brewers Dried Yeast, Tomato Pomace, Natural Flavor

6 - Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Egg Product, Pearled Barley, Brewers Dried Yeast, Menhaden Fish Meal, Natural Chicken Flavor,

7 - Chicken Meal, Chicken Fat [Preserved with Natural Mixed Tocopherols (Vitamin E)], Rice Flour, Oatmeal, Brown Rice, Dried Beet Pulp, Egg Product, Catfish Meal, Brewers Dried Yeast, Flax Seed,

Most (5 of 7) have two meat meals, but the second is pretty far back in all of them.

With the exception of 7, beet pulp is in the top four ingredients. It's a bulk fiber that is a pre-biotic in small amounts, but is really there to take up space and give the dog firm poops when it's that far up the list.

Number 7 has two rice in the list, not good.

Though the jury is out on "egg product" I'm not a fan. If it's whole eggs (without shells), why the game? Is it yolk or white? Dried or not (makes a big difference)?

Brewers yeast - has a lot of protein (just under 50%), so boosts the protein profile of the food, but is cheaper than getting it from meat.

Pearled barley (5/7) - a grain, when it's pearled it doesn't have the complete nutritional profile of barley

All of these foods are mostly NOT meat, they are mostly grains.

Compared to Origen Adult:
Fresh boneless chicken*, chicken meal, fresh boneless salmon*, turkey meal, herring meal, russet potato, peas, sweet potato, fresh boneless turkey*, fresh whole eggs*,

Three meals, four "fresh" (which, of course makes those ingredients fall quite a bit) but even accounting for that, the first three ingredients of Origen are meat meals. Though two potatoes aren't the best here, I think the amount of meat over balances that.

Compared to EVO Turkey and Chicken:
Turkey, Chicken, Turkey Meal,Chicken Meal,Potatoes,Herring Meal,Chicken Fat (Preserved with Mixed Tocopherols a Natural Source of Vitamin E), Natural Flavors, Eggs, apples

Three meals, two fresh, only three non-animal source ingredients in the list. Since it just says eggs, I'll assume they are fresh, which makes them fall off that list in processing, but it's still a while food.

Wellness Core Original:
Deboned Turkey, Turkey Meal, Chicken Meal, Peas, Potatoes, Dried Ground Potatoes, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Tomato Pomace, Chicken Liver, Natural Chicken Flavor,

two meals, two fresh, but two potatoes as well (one fresh, one dried)

Taste of the Wild High Prairie:
Bison, lamb meal, chicken meal, egg product, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, roasted bison, roasted venison

Two meals, still don't like the "egg product", fresh bison falls, roasted meats have less water than fresh meats so don't fall as far, not liking the two potatoes but five meats (even with the different profiles) balance that out a little.

Blue Buffalo Chicken and Rice
Deboned Chicken, Chicken Meal, Whole Ground Brown Rice, Whole Ground Barley, Oatmeal, Chicken Fat (preserved with Mixed Tocopherols), Rye, Tomato Pomace (source of Lycopene), Natural Chicken Flavor, Whole Potatoes,

About the same overall as Best Breeds, not a high end food.

So....

I'm not impressed, and when compared with the high ends that she already carries it doesn't really come close. It's not horrible, but not high end.

All of the above are just my opinions of course. :wink:
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 1st, 2011, 10:35 am

I'd argue with Michelle on one point...having grains does not make it a non-high end food. Comparing grain free food ingredients to a food with grains is a bit skewed. I know you were comparing it to other foods that she carries, but it isn't quite the same in my book.

The Blue Buffalo is a good comparison...since it does have grains, but are BETTER grains, since they have whole grains in there. So I'd say the Blue Buffalo is a step up from the Best Breed...especially since the Best Breed has a lot of rice instead of different grains.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 1st, 2011, 11:27 am

Woot! Outstanding breakdowns! Thank you!
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Postby mnp13 » November 1st, 2011, 12:44 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I'd argue with Michelle on one point...having grains does not make it a non-high end food. Comparing grain free food ingredients to a food with grains is a bit skewed. I know you were comparing it to other foods that she carries, but it isn't quite the same in my book.

No, having grains does not make it a non-high end food. Having more grains than meat is what I have issue with. But I see what you're saying, and it's a valid point.

The Blue Buffalo is a good comparison...since it does have grains, but are BETTER grains, since they have whole grains in there. So I'd say the Blue Buffalo is a step up from the Best Breed...especially since the Best Breed has a lot of rice instead of different grains.

Good point - whole barley is a better grain than pearled barley.

So, here is Wellness Complete Health Large Breed:
Deboned Chicken, Deboned Whitefish, Chicken Meal, Oatmeal, Ground Peas, Ground Barley, Ground Brown Rice, Tomato Pomace, Salmon Meal, Chicken Fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E),

Two meals, two fresh, and a number of different grains, but whole grain.

Fromm 4-star
Pork, Pork Meal, Oatmeal, Pearled Barley, Pea Protein, Brown Rice, White Rice, Dried Tomato Pomace, Whole Dried Egg, Sweet Potato

one meal, one fresh, and a whole lot of rice. At least we know what the eggs are in this one.

Oh and about the different breed formulas - all seven of those foods are pretty similar. Yes, there are some notable differences, but not much. I think it's a marketing gimmick more than anything.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 1st, 2011, 1:23 pm

It's an expensive marketing gimmick - I can't believe which of the foods I clicked on, but it was $50 for a 33lb bag.
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Postby Malli » November 1st, 2011, 1:30 pm

keep in mind, high protein has been linked to dogs acquiring early onset kidney failure, particularly so with the Orijen.

I'm not sure there has been any scientific comparison yet to determine what protein content is best, or if there is one? But I haven't looked hard, either.
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Postby mnp13 » November 1st, 2011, 1:56 pm

Malli wrote:keep in mind, high protein has been linked to dogs acquiring early onset kidney failure, particularly so with the Orijen.


I'd be interested to see the studies on that. With humans, the studies about "high protein diets leading to kidney problems" were mostly done on people who already had kidney problems. Are the dog ones non-biased? And why would Orijen cause it more than other foods?

And also, if that's correct, is there correlating data with dogs who are fed raw?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the bigger problem is not enough water intake.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 1st, 2011, 3:20 pm

I'd always read that high protein does not LEAD to kidney problems; however, a dog with kidney problems should not be fed high protein.

And raw is only something like 16-18% protein. Everybody thinks it's high in protein, but it's really not.
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Postby mnp13 » November 1st, 2011, 9:57 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:And raw is only something like 16-18% protein. Everybody thinks it's high in protein, but it's really not.

Yes and no. It depends on what you're feeding, how lean that meat is and how much bone there is. A boneless skinless chicken breast is going to have a higher percentage of protein than a skin-on, bone in, chicken quarter. A "serving" of chicken is four ounces (raw), or 113 grams, and there anywhere from 21-48 grams of protein in each serving (depends on how the bird was fed and the kind of bird.)

The other thing is the bio-availability of that protein. When foods are processed their nutritional values are often inflated - things are added that are unuseable by the body, but since they are there, they still "count." For example, pasteurization of milk greatly lowers the bio-availability of calcium. The amount of calcium in the milk is still there, but your body can't actually access it. Vitamin companies are notorious for that, they put completely unusable forms of vitamins and minerals into their pills, because the item is there. It's not their concern that you actually can't get at any of it, so you just pee it out (well, that depends on the particular item, but that's not really germane to the matter at hand.)

That's one of the things about raw vs kibble feeding. Look at the difference in poop volume - most dogs on raw have tiny little poops, because their bodies are using every bit of what they are eating. Dogs on kibble poop more, and there's more of it because the food has a lot of stuff the body can't use. The volume of our dog's poop is much higher after a vegetable meal than a meat meal. But they get a pound of food regardless.

That's what led to the melanine being added to dog food a few years ago. It has protein in it, so when the food's numbers are calculated, the protein content is fine (but the source of that protein is poison, so it's not like the dog is getting anything good from it.)

Cats are obligate carnivores. Kibble is completely unnatural for them. When pet food was first manufactured, pet cats were dieing because cooking meat destroys taurene and cats don't make their own. A raw diet is the actual only way you can feed them and not give them supplements (not that my brat cats would ever bother to eat it!) or have the supplements added to the food after the processing as is the case with taurene.
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Postby Malli » November 2nd, 2011, 3:01 am

I don't have any studies off hand. I know my friend who worked for a local vet actually attended a talk where someone came in, and warned the staff that this was going on. Further to that, I mentioned at a local pet store that I was cocerned with high protein content in food for my dog, and the owner mentioned all on his own that it had been an issue with Orijen.
Orijen because as I understand it the protein content is higher then most?

I don't know of any studies on anything other then bacterial gi infection issues with regards to raw, and can't recall their location as I've not seen them in a long time.


I can speak from my own anecdotal evidence. My puppy was moved from a Purina brand food to a newer food called Acana; normally in my house, you eat what you are given and thats that. After 1 week, highly food motivated(and not picky puppy) dog went off his food, ate maybe 1/2 to 1/4 of what he was being offered. In addition, he had two bouts where he vomited up all of the food he had eaten 1-2 hrs prior, and acted nauseous for car rides.
I picked a different food and went in to buy it, which is when I had the conversation with the store owner, and was informed that the food he was on was made by orijen.
New food has 26(?)% protein and he has no problem eating it.

As far as the water - kidney issues, I don't really know of any correlation. Oscar keeps his urine concentrated, numerous urinalysis he has had it always is, one technician commented that he had a concentration like a cat (I suppose they are frequently concentrated), he almost always have access to water and has yet -touch wood- to have an issue. My understanding is this is more of an issue with regards to cats and water intake. May be mistaken though.
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Postby SisMorphine » November 2nd, 2011, 12:09 pm

Don't forget to ask about sourcing of the ingredients. Frankly that is usually a question that stumps most reps.
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Postby ArtGypsy » November 2nd, 2011, 12:38 pm

SisMorphine wrote:Don't forget to ask about sourcing of the ingredients. Frankly that is usually a question that stumps most reps.



So.................what DOES this mean.......???
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Postby SisMorphine » November 2nd, 2011, 2:40 pm

ArtGypsy wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:Don't forget to ask about sourcing of the ingredients. Frankly that is usually a question that stumps most reps.



So.................what DOES this mean.......???

It means, are they getting their ingredients from China? Canada? US Farms? Are the ingrients used human grade? etc etc
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Postby ArtGypsy » November 2nd, 2011, 2:54 pm

SisMorphine wrote:
ArtGypsy wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:Don't forget to ask about sourcing of the ingredients. Frankly that is usually a question that stumps most reps.



So.................what DOES this mean.......???

It means, are they getting their ingredients from China? Canada? US Farms? Are the ingrients used human grade? etc etc



:D
Thank-ya-ma'am........
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Postby mnp13 » November 2nd, 2011, 3:41 pm

SisMorphine wrote:It means, are they getting their ingredients from China? Canada? US Farms? Are the ingrients used human grade? etc etc


Good point. When the ingredient is "meat meal" or "protein meal" (not the case in any of these listed) then it's made of everything that you don't want to know about...
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