Am I confused...

This is where to talk about Pit Bulls!

Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 9:52 am

or does this website really say that they purposely bred a litter of pit bull type dogs...from rescued parents, for some project?

http://k10help.com/?page_id=16
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » June 16th, 2011, 10:17 am

Holy cripes. If you're confused, I am, too.

The mission of the production is to document the raising of the puppies and train them vocationally, proving Nurture over Nature, and that Good People raise Good Dogs.

This project is intended to improve public perception of the positive aptitudes of bully breeds in order to increase shelter adoptions of these types of dogs.


The Puppies were bred for the purpose of the program. They were born to Leopold and Evaleena, two dogs that were rescued from deprived urban Detroit areas where known dog fighting activities occur. They are of undetermined lineage bearing the appearance of a bully breed dog.
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 10:22 am

Did some more digging...this woman did in fact, rescue two pit bulls...and then BRED them to make puppies that could be service dog prospects. My head just exploded.

I could find them litter after litter of randomly bred pit bull type dogs to work with...geez, I had a litter here not too long ago!

http://www.theoaklandpress.com/articles ... de=default
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Postby Pit♥bull » June 16th, 2011, 10:27 am

I usually just laugh, but this is serious and I had to respond. :(
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2011, 10:53 am

http://www.facebook.com/k10project

My post:
Hello, I was wondering if you can clear something up for me... according to your website, you got two dogs from unknown backgrounds, then bred them so that you would have puppies for this "project"? I'm curious to know why you didn't take in one of the many hundreds of litters that are in rescue and shelters right now, if the actual breed of the dog didn't matter, but only that it was "Pit Bull type"?

The goal of the project is impressive, and I wish you success, but I'm not understanding why more puppies were created from unknown lineage - there are soooo many out there already!
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 11:20 am

good work everyone!

I "liked" the page this morning on FB...because a friend had referred me to it. I read that they train bully breed dogs for Service work...I thought, what a fantastic idea! (difficult to find clients that can deal with the repercussions, but great idea) Then I read more on the website and was horrified! I had to head out the door, so I didn't get chance to say anything on the FB page or website yet.
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 12:25 pm

Bwahahahaha...I posted after Michelle on FB...now there is another comment from a non-PBT person saying...oh this is upsetting, I didn't realize!

lol
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Postby AllAmericanPUP » June 16th, 2011, 12:28 pm

:shock: people never cease to amaze me :(
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 10:00 pm

Oh...it's all scientifically done...that clears it right up! And they have a much better success rate than the established Assistance Dog groups...they know this because the first litter is SIX MONTHS OLD. *headdesk*

And geez...use the proper words if you're going to send out a serious email. Idiot.

Hi Erin, In regards to the FB thread on K10. We did try to adopt a littler or PG mother for nearly two years and no shelter or rescue was willing to adopt to us that many dogs. Perhaps they were concerned about what we were going to do with them from a scientific perspective we assumed, although they did not site that as the main reason. During the time spent searching for pups or a pg mom we realized in our research that many shelters put down bully breed dogs because they “might come from dog fighting origins and be unpredictable time bombs” never giving them a chance. We were shocked to find that 5-6 week old pups were immediately euthanized. And because of that realization, in part the program intends to debunk this theory and so adopting a PG mom was no longer an option because we would not be able to prove the father dog or draw connections to dogfighting. Obviously taking dogs from a reputable kennel would do nothing to disprove the theory that the dogs are genetically predisposed to fighting not that we considered that at all because we are an anti breeding rescue service dog program. The most effective argument was to take dog that came from dogfighting and nurture them and their offspring in an environment conducive to service/therapy training and hope for expected results that the dogs would be stable due to proper nurturing and training. I’m sure you are aware that we are the only service dog organization that does not breed dogs per the tradition which actually calls for breeding because organizations attempt to engineer dogs with certain qualities still regardless of these attempts they have a very high failure rate. We are actually having a much higher success rate so far with the first K10 litter of bully breed mutts thankfully. And based on our scientific findings thus far we are we are preparing to adopt a K10-2 litter from rescue and hopefully we will have similar success with them, and so on, with the litter that follows them. We are supported at this time by many rescues who have seen our achievements and are ready to provide litters for training in service/therapy work. We have successfully facilitated adoptions of 43 pet dogs because of the positive impact of the program. So what we are doing is succeeding in saving dogs by transforming the public mindset into understanding that they can trust their shelter and rescue friends to place a safe dog in their home. We only premiered the concept last September so as knowledge about the program grows perceptions will change and more people will consider adopting bully breeds. The 501c3 mission of our service dog organization clearly states that all future dogs will be rescued and we are confident we have successfully made our point with this 1st litter that nurture supersedes nature. We will continue to gather empirical data as new litters are trained in the program.
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Postby mnp13 » June 16th, 2011, 10:37 pm

Wow, nurture supersceeds nature, based on the scientific findings of one litter that is less than a year old. I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale...
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 16th, 2011, 11:43 pm

They also apparently deleted the posts from Michelle and I off of the FB page. In the morning, I'm going to respond via FB. :)
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Postby Tubular Toby » June 16th, 2011, 11:52 pm

Are there posts that were deleted or are you talking about the first ones you guys did? Because I still see them. But if there were more responses, then yeah, I don't see those.

Still... major headache. I couldn't even read all of their response. Ever heard of paragraphs? I love how they think they are being scientific yet they're not. At all. *headdesk*
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 17th, 2011, 9:38 am

Tubular Toby wrote:Are there posts that were deleted or are you talking about the first ones you guys did? Because I still see them. But if there were more responses, then yeah, I don't see those.

Still... major headache. I couldn't even read all of their response. Ever heard of paragraphs? I love how they think they are being scientific yet they're not. At all. *headdesk*


Yeah, I came back and thought I edited my post above...I found our FB posts right after I posted that on PBT...but apparently, it didn't take! lol
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Postby mnp13 » June 17th, 2011, 10:08 am

I posted suggesting they put up their reasoning as a note instead of on the wall. I don't really want to go back and forth with her in messages.

5 years of "scientific research" and one litter of 6 month old puppies is not proof of anything. What scientific research they were doing is the real question, as there are no national service dog registries or certifications, and I doubt either of the main seeing eye dog groups (Guiding Eyes for the Blind or Seeing Eyes) are going to give out their "wash out" numbers. So what research, and based on what data?

I really have a problem with the fundamental premise of their starting point - that they needed dogs that were "taken from dog fighting" so they could prove that "nurture supersedes nature." Great, we have yet another high profile group claim that "it's all in how you raise them;" because that basically states (without saying it directly) that any of the dogs that are dog aggressive must have been raised wrong. What are they going to say when a couple of those puppies turn on at maturity?

If they can take a litter of Labradors and through "nurture" teach them not to retrieve then I'll believe it can be done. You can't just undo a few hundred generations of selective breeding by "raising them right."

And, quite frankly, I kinda doubt their foundation litter was actually from fighting dogs, since the parents don't look like they have a mark on them in the photos on the website. I believe what they say about where they got the dogs (why would they lie?) but that doesn't mean that the dogs were actually fighting dogs. Of course, the opposite is also true, they could be all torn up and never have been fought either, so unfortunately they are in a corner on that one.

I applaud their goals, I truly do, but the methods? Not so much.
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 17th, 2011, 10:50 am

The first dog, the male, was bought from a junkyard owner...not exactly a dog-fighting ring...more likely a neglectful, typical-junk-yard-dog place to live.

The second dog, the female, she found "on Detroit's West Side". Ah...obviously from a fighting ring also!

I did pop in ask some SD-based questions about pups...regardless of breed, origin, etc...I'm curious about where these pups are going. The one woman says her dog will dial 911 for her. But that's all? That's not enough to be a SD. And I wonder if they really know what it's like to take a dog with you 24/7. The founder admits in the news article:
“Everywhere I went, I found myself defending my dog to the public,” Noble said, who named her dog Leopold. “I was getting really exhausted convincing every person, one at a time, that I had a good dog.”
I want to know if they realize how much harder it will be for a person with a disability to take a pit bull with them everywhere. It takes a special person to handle the negativity of having "scary" breed with them everywhere. It's hard enough taking a cute golden retriever, much less a pit bull type dog.
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Postby TinaMartin » June 17th, 2011, 9:06 pm

The only thing I can find "scientific" about this is they have a "premise" and a "conclusion". It looks like a flimsy pile of cardboard to me.
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Postby Pit♥bull » June 18th, 2011, 7:06 pm

This sounds like something that silly SOB 'AmericanSuprDog' would have come up with. :crazy2:
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 18th, 2011, 11:07 pm

Here's the email I sent tonight:

On Jun 18, 2011 9:35 PM, <theredqueen4@red-rover.biz> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Since my questions aren't being answered on Facebook, I guess I will email them to you.
>
> I have some questions about the pups themselves...how is their public access work going? How are their service dog skills going, and what types of service will they be doing? Are any of the pups matched with clients with disabilities yet...if not, when will that be happening?
>
> Erin Saywell
> www.red-rover.biz
> www.servicedogsawyer.blogspot.com
> Service Dog Trainer and Pit bull rescuer
>


Here's the fantastic answer I got...I am now waiting with baited breath for this "newsletter"

Erin,
Thank you so much for working with me, its much easier to email.
Those are fantastic questions and we will make sure to include all the answers I'm our newsletter. We will send it out and post it on our websight and as a note on facebook early next month.
We are all working very hard taking care of the dogs and running the foundation. Any interest is welcome but please understand that we are limited in our workforce right now and your patience is only going to help.
Thanks again, any thing else please let me know.


Wow, this is so much fun...seriously, I love messing with idiots.
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"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » June 19th, 2011, 8:43 am

The response from the director this morning:
Hi Erin, I don't see your questions on FB? 5 of the 10 posted and graduated CGC today. Their public access is going very well. The other did not post for various reason 2 of the families are out of town, 1 dog is recovering from cleft palet surgery and one had a recent trauma and one was rehomed a week ago. We have everything filmed so it's wonderful to review their progress. This prototype litter is a combination of vocations. Some will be service dogs and some Therapy dogs. We hope that they will all succeed at the very least to be pets. We are training them in a broad range of vocations. The research at this time is to determine the aptitudes and abilities of bully breeds to gadge what level they can be trained to. We are not training dogs for the blind however. Otherwise, despite the needs of their families we are trying to reach the maximum potential of each dog. Let me know what else I can share with you. Joanna

Joanna Noble
Director-Producer
K10 Project Reputation Rescue
310 936 6006


John's going to call her today asking about getting a Service Dog, and how does he go about doing such a thing.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby Pit♥bull » June 19th, 2011, 8:53 am

TheRedQueen wrote:John's going to call her today asking about getting a Service Dog, and how does he go about doing such a thing.

:spit:
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