What Has The Breed Become?

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Postby mnp13 » February 26th, 2011, 9:30 pm

This is also why I put forth the idea in my last post of running the sporting events concurrent with Conformation for registry specific clubs so as to help keep up the excitement and participation level.


and as I said... I have never attended a show that has conformation and athletic events where they did NOT run concurrently. this actually makes it VERY difficult to compete in both, your arguement is actually the reverse of what is easier (therefore more likely for people to choose to do)
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Postby furever_pit » February 26th, 2011, 9:54 pm

Every NWDA show I have been to does not have conformation and working events going on at the same time. It is typically WP in the early AM, conformation until mid afternoon, and then working events sometimes until after dark (depending on lighting). Sometimes WP is after conformation instead of before. But nothing is at the same time.

You can work your dog on your own or with the other people there while conformation is going on but you won't miss an actual event while the conformation ring is going at it. It works very well actually.
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Postby Leslie H » February 26th, 2011, 10:27 pm

I am finding this thread very hard to follow.

I'm a weight pull judge w/UKC and APA (non-registry), the president of a UKC wp club, and my dogs compete in UKC, NKC and ADBA conformation (occasionally), UKC, ADBA and APA weight pull, and UKC, CPE, USDAA and NADAC agility. I've helped organize and run UKC, NKC and APA events, and have worked at all the events listed.
You could not fairly run a weight pull on a walk in basis, and they're not that mobile, either. Agility is amazingly labor intensive. I don't get the impression you've ever hosted an event, because I believe there's more involved than you realize. As a starting point, club event insurance us between $300-$500 a year (if you've got APBT in your club name, you'll be paying $500). Many clubs struggle just to break even, Weather can ruin an event, and sites that offer cover, such as horse farms or fairgrounds are costly.
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Postby mnp13 » February 26th, 2011, 10:29 pm

The UKC shows I've been to - both all breed and Pit Bull only - have conformation and weight pull at the same time.

The AKC shows I've been to - all breed - have conformation and agility or obedience going on at the same time. A few have had conformation and obedience and rally and agility... all at the same time.

How many dogs are at the shows that there is time for them to run one after the other?? Most of the shows I've been to, conformation runs about 6 hours, and weight pull runs from the same time until well after. If they were run one after the other, the show would last longer than 12 hours!! One of the pulls I was at went from 9 am (8am registration) until 8 that night. It wouldn't have been possible to run conformation non-concurrently.

A 100 dog agility trial (that's teeny tiny, with only one ring) takes 6-8 hours. How could you not run conformation at the same time? Assuming there is conformation at all... most agility trials are only agility trials.
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Postby Leslie H » February 26th, 2011, 10:40 pm

At Premier this summer I had Soleil entered in agility, weight pull and conf. on one day. It was more than slightly manic, and involved a fair amount of literal "running around".
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 26th, 2011, 11:00 pm

I went to basset nationals for two years...they had agility/conformation/obedience/field trials all over the course of a weekend. I was tired out just entering agility and *shopping*.
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Postby AmericanSuprDog » February 28th, 2011, 5:21 pm

For all those who feel like my original post was too large please feel free to answer any one of the questions individually within.

SisMorphine I am breaking your post up to handle each point.

SisMorphine wrote:
AmericanSuprDog wrote:Wow that really underscores this point in my original post:
“Is it the fault of local clubs who have failed to market themselves well enough to pull in more members? Who have failed to offer more opportunities of sporting events despite registries lack of sanctioning these? Who have failed to educate their members in the activities available? Who perpetuate a fear of failure by not embracing more participation through training?”


Well I feel that this has been answered by multiple people, and also by yourself. The local clubs you're talking about seem to be single breed and registry related. If you don't want to sit through conformation, and you want to see and encourage dogs to actually go out and do some sort of sport work, whether it be obedience, agility, etc etc etc . . . then look into sport clubs! The clubs I have been a member of have yes, been all breed (the idea of which you seem to be fighting against), and they've also been sport-centered. No, I don't have an APBT, but I do have a bully breed and my dogs prove their working ability, as do all of the rest of the dogs in the clubs I have been in. Though some people may choose to show in conformation, that's not what the group is about so our gatherings are focussed on the working aspect of a dog.


Really I am not looking for a specific answer I am looking for dialogue as I do not feel there is really any one specific answer.

I absolutely am not against multi-breed or non-registry affiliated clubs. In fact in my last post I suggested the IWPA a multi-breed non-registry affiliated club.

Our TV series however is focused on the Pit Bull and Am Staff, which is where my focus has come from.

Whether it be single or multi-breed clubs I think there is much to learn and having experience with both will help me understand the other better. I will be doing more research on multi-breed clubs and look forward to attending some events once the weather is a little warmer.

I would like to commend you for your work with your dog as her accomplishments not only shine well on her they shine well on you as an owner as well. I would personally like to see more Pit Bull/Am Staff owners take some of the same pride you do. I think getting them involved in doing activities with their dogs is a way to help generate pride in ownership.

SisMorphine wrote: But if you're going to keep sticking with the registry clubs you're going to be stuck in the conformation cycle that you are trying to get out of. Think outside the box. Well . . . outside of your box. I think for the rest of the people who are into the working aspect of a dog (of any breed) they realize that they need to focus on being a member of a working/sport group to accomplish this.


I definitely have not been sticking with registry-affiliated clubs as I have been to both those that are affiliated and those who are not. I have said that I think there are benefits and drawbacks to both types. To prove this point here is an quote from my original post.

“Is it the registries for failing to promote and sanction more events to highlight the skills of the breed? Sure people can argue the point that fighting is not legal and can fall on the tired argument that the only way to really game test is through the fighting pit. Is this not however just a copout or is this reflective of just how little imagination the world and registries have when it comes to testing the drive, determination and don’t give up attitude that are really at the heart of the term “game”.”

I would say that is pretty far out of the “box”.

SisMorphine wrote: With my breed I can't compete in AKC, UKC, etc. So none of the events that I attend have conformation shows SO they are only based on the working/sport aspect of the breed. There are plenty of groups out there offering this opportunity and I think that perhaps you need to open yourself to competing outside of the registry world to see more APBTs and other bully breeds doing sport work.


I do agree that I need to broaden my experience with other clubs and will be doing so. When you get a chance check out the post with dlynne1123 above and you will see that in some cases clubs are still not welcoming.

I do think there are many types of opportunity available but I do not think there are enough clubs and enough shows highlighting these irregardless if they are single or multi-breed or registry or non-registry affiliated.

mnp13, furever_pit and Leslie H I think your posts help show how diverse the management of individual clubs are. I lean more to an idea of more concurrent activity than less activity as boredom seems more prevalent when fewer activities are going on. Of course this could be effected by the types of activities and how there could be possible conflicts.

Leslie H wrote:I'm a weight pull judge w/UKC and APA (non-registry), the president of a UKC wp club, and my dogs compete in UKC, NKC and ADBA conformation (occasionally), UKC, ADBA and APA weight pull, and UKC, CPE, USDAA and NADAC agility. I've helped organize and run UKC, NKC and APA events, and have worked at all the events listed.
You could not fairly run a weight pull on a walk in basis, and they're not that mobile, either. Agility is amazingly labor intensive. I don't get the impression you've ever hosted an event, because I believe there's more involved than you realize. As a starting point, club event insurance us between $300-$500 a year (if you've got APBT in your club name, you'll be paying $500). Many clubs struggle just to break even, Weather can ruin an event, and sites that offer cover, such as horse farms or fairgrounds are costly.


I think you have much to offer to this conversation having the experience you do. I hope you will continue to add your educated input.

One of the questions I have in regards to your post is what are the hurdles to having a walk up weight pull. I do understand the mobility aspect. I have however seen a rail pull that was on part of a trailer that was hauled by a truck.

I have not hosted a show and am interested in those aspects from the development aspect of the tv series. Most of the shows I have went to range between 100 – 250 entries ant usually had around 5-10 volunteer workers. I think based on research that some of the biggest problem in developing and managing an event is getting people involved in more than a participant basis.

In regards to insurance that is a pretty large variation. Is that some kind of specialized insurance or is this just standard business insurance? dlynne1123 also has some similar experience and has said that the insurance does not vary simply because more events are offered at a show. It seems given that insurance is such a large cost that it would definitely be beneficial to have more shows to help spread the cost.
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 28th, 2011, 5:32 pm

*yawn*
*snore*
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Postby AmericanSuprDog » February 28th, 2011, 6:36 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:*yawn*
*snore*


Feel free to leave the post or provide input. Do you think it would help maybe if I broke the original post down to several topics with one point each? If so what points within the original post would you like addressed first?

I find the topic as a whole has been very fascinating and have found the input by some very revealing. For those - thank you and please continue.
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Postby Pit♥bull » February 28th, 2011, 7:44 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:*yawn*
*snore*

:P
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Postby mnp13 » February 28th, 2011, 8:21 pm

No, I think it would help if you stopped talking in circles.

Insurance for dog events can be specific for the event, or it can be general insurance - though I personally have not heard of that. If you are holding an AKC sanctioned event, your clubs insurance is "backed" by the AKC's insurance.

You can't have a walk up weight pull, unless you are talking about walk up registration in the morning. Dogs are separated into weight classes and the weight gets progressively heavier as the competition goes on. If people could just "walk up" and start, then the cart would have to be loaded and unloaded endlessly. Ass it is, it takes a good deal of time to reset the cart between classes, even with a crew of half a dozen people. Have you ever actually been to a weight pull and watched from start to finish? A good class of 50 pound dogs can get up over 2000 pounds without much trouble, and that often goes in increments of 200 pounds, so each dogs might pull 5 or more times. (you can come in when you want, and also pass weights.)

You keep on talking about this TV show. Do you actually have sponsors and backing? I have to say that I have a hard time believing that this is a real endevor if you don't know the basics of insurance and work flow for basic events.
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Postby TheRedQueen » February 28th, 2011, 8:25 pm

AmericanSuprDog wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:*yawn*
*snore*


Feel free to leave the post or provide input. Do you think it would help maybe if I broke the original post down to several topics with one point each? If so what points within the original post would you like addressed first?

I find the topic as a whole has been very fascinating and have found the input by some very revealing. For those - thank you and please continue.


I don't have pit bulls, and I don't participate in weight pull, conformation, or anything else that you've mentioned...so I'm out. :wave2:
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Postby AmericanSuprDog » February 28th, 2011, 11:30 pm

mnp13 wrote:No, I think it would help if you stopped talking in circles.

Insurance for dog events can be specific for the event, or it can be general insurance - though I personally have not heard of that. If you are holding an AKC sanctioned event, your clubs insurance is "backed" by the AKC's insurance.

You can't have a walk up weight pull, unless you are talking about walk up registration in the morning. Dogs are separated into weight classes and the weight gets progressively heavier as the competition goes on. If people could just "walk up" and start, then the cart would have to be loaded and unloaded endlessly. Ass it is, it takes a good deal of time to reset the cart between classes, even with a crew of half a dozen people. Have you ever actually been to a weight pull and watched from start to finish? A good class of 50 pound dogs can get up over 2000 pounds without much trouble, and that often goes in increments of 200 pounds, so each dogs might pull 5 or more times. (you can come in when you want, and also pass weights.)

You keep on talking about this TV show. Do you actually have sponsors and backing? I have to say that I have a hard time believing that this is a real endevor if you don't know the basics of insurance and work flow for basic events.


I do not know anything about AKC or multi-breed shows. I have been forward with this from the beginning. I do appreciate the input however as it helps me better understand the commonalities, differences and obstacles. Understanding these aspects moving forward helps keep the proverbial horse before the wagon. One of the obstacles as mentioned is insurance. The way to get past this hurdle is to understand what kind and how much. For our purposes the AKC is obviously not going to be an option. Do you have any experience with any other providers? If so what, how much, by whom and what kind exactly? You brought the issue up so please do not attack for asking about it.

In regards to the tv show we are in the first stages of development, which sponsorship is not part of. In fact sponsorship for the show in and of itself may not be sought at all. Sponsorship is more of a club event thing whereas many tv series do not have individual sponsors other than general commercial sponsorship. Like some sports however competing individuals may seek sponsorship to pay for their costs such as transportation, housing, etc. I think you may be confusing the difference between a show event and a television series show.
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Postby mnp13 » March 1st, 2011, 12:37 am

I haven't confused anything. And you haven't been attacked yet, not even close.

There are many different insurance options - most dog clubs have insurance for day to day things like classes, seminars, etc. Some have comprehensive liability, etc. Dog events like bitework seminars might get separate insurance from a company like Sportsmans. Prices vary widely.

Honestly, all of this is the most basic of the parts of running any dog club or dog event. I'm really very confused by this entire topic... have you or any of the people who are involved in this endeavor actually set up and/or been involved in dog events? If not, I think you really need to do some "hands on" research and actually get involved with running a show or two.

I've been involved in a number of clubs, and a few very large scale events, until you actually help at one you really have no idea all of the things it entails.
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Postby AmericanSuprDog » March 1st, 2011, 1:24 am

mnp13 wrote:I haven't confused anything. And you haven't been attacked yet, not even close.

There are many different insurance options - most dog clubs have insurance for day to day things like classes, seminars, etc. Some have comprehensive liability, etc. Dog events like bitework seminars might get separate insurance from a company like Sportsmans. Prices vary widely.

Honestly, all of this is the most basic of the parts of running any dog club or dog event. I'm really very confused by this entire topic... have you or any of the people who are involved in this endeavor actually set up and/or been involved in dog events? If not, I think you really need to do some "hands on" research and actually get involved with running a show or two.

I've been involved in a number of clubs, and a few very large scale events, until you actually help at one you really have no idea all of the things it entails.


First I am sorry if I have misread your responses as it has seems that there is underlying negativism.

Next, thank you for the insurance resource. The show itself however will be quite different than current club events. Yes there will be some similarities and it is for this reason that I am researching this part. I agree with the points on broadening my scope of research into multi-breed and sporting type clubs and will be seeking to do this in a more hands on fashion.
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Postby DemoDick » March 1st, 2011, 9:30 pm

AmericanSuprDog wrote:In regards to the tv show we are in the first stages of development, which sponsorship is not part of. In fact sponsorship for the show in and of itself may not be sought at all. Sponsorship is more of a club event thing whereas many tv series do not have individual sponsors other than general commercial sponsorship. Like some sports however competing individuals may seek sponsorship to pay for their costs such as transportation, housing, etc. I think you may be confusing the difference between a show event and a television series show.


If seeking sponsorship is not a part of pre-production, then you are financing it personally or have investors, correct?

What is your experience in the field of TV producing? Do you know what is involved with actually producing, marketing and airing a television show? Can we see some of your work? If I remember correctly, your initial post claimed or inferred that you were looking for dogs for "America's Got Talent". What happened with that?

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Postby iluvk9 » March 2nd, 2011, 6:45 am

DemoDick wrote: If I remember correctly, your initial post claimed or inferred that you were looking for dogs for "America's Got Talent". What happened with that?
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Postby TheRedQueen » March 2nd, 2011, 8:21 am

iluvk9 wrote:
DemoDick wrote: If I remember correctly, your initial post claimed or inferred that you were looking for dogs for "America's Got Talent". What happened with that?
Demo Dick


All the Black Labradors were busy with other engagements. :wink:


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Postby TinaMartin » March 2nd, 2011, 12:04 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
iluvk9 wrote:
DemoDick wrote: If I remember correctly, your initial post claimed or inferred that you were looking for dogs for "America's Got Talent". What happened with that?
Demo Dick


All the Black Labradors were busy with other engagements. :wink:


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Postby furever_pit » March 2nd, 2011, 1:22 pm

mnp13 wrote:I haven't confused anything. And you haven't been attacked yet, not even close.

There are many different insurance options - most dog clubs have insurance for day to day things like classes, seminars, etc. Some have comprehensive liability, etc. Dog events like bitework seminars might get separate insurance from a company like Sportsmans. Prices vary widely.

Honestly, all of this is the most basic of the parts of running any dog club or dog event. I'm really very confused by this entire topic... have you or any of the people who are involved in this endeavor actually set up and/or been involved in dog events? If not, I think you really need to do some "hands on" research and actually get involved with running a show or two.

I've been involved in a number of clubs, and a few very large scale events, until you actually help at one you really have no idea all of the things it entails.


Yep. As someone who has recently started a training club and is hosting my first seminar this weekend, there is a lot of stuff that I didn't think about needing to be done until I had already jumped in. Doesn't mean it's not awesome, just that it is a lot of work. I have found that delegation to other club and organizational members is a must.

I will also say that one way to cut down on overhead costs is to use land that you (or a friend or someone interested in your endeavor) actually owns. This is the case with my club and we will be making more money from the seminars and events that we host because of that, it also allows me to pass on savings to those who are attending.
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