What constitutes the theft of an "idea" or "design"?

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Postby DemoDick » February 1st, 2011, 7:00 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:No Demo, I didn't see them. Not the pics of the collar we are speaking about in this thread. The links to the other collars by Rossingol, Paco and Rebecca I have seen. I have seen that design before also. I cant tell you if the construction of the collar I saw was the same however.


Ok. Thanks for clarifying.

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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2011, 8:29 pm

Well, I have now seen the pictures. And there is z-e-r-o doubt in my mind that the Ophelia pt. 2 is a copy of Noel's design. Are they identical? No. However, unlike the "ranger" collars - star, dot, dot, star, dot, dot, star. This one is unique, very unique.

Not posting the pictures is not my choice, and you don't have to believe me if you don't want to. However, I'll "give" on the "ranger" collar thing (though I still think that the Paco collar is a bit different from Brad's whereas, the Enzo is almost a carbon copy of Brads.)

And, just like with the Paco collar example, the copy isn't exact but it is so similar that it is remarkable.

The example that Noel initially posted about? Sorry. She's right. And I'm not saying it because she's my friend, but because I'm looking at them side by side.

So, believe it or don't. But Noel has a case here. A REAL case. You can call me a lot of things, but I generally don't get called a liar. And I'm not lying now.
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Postby sfbullygirl » February 1st, 2011, 10:06 pm

Well if she has a case that is great she needs to go to a lawyer and prove that Rebecca found her secret hidden pages and photobucket or whatever hosting site she uses, account and downloaded that picture and then made a copy. Unlike Paco and Brad this collar picture was not available for viewing anywhere by anyone to copy unless they happened to randomly type find her photobucket account take pictures. If that can be proven then there is a case for theft or copyright or hacking or whatever the legal issue is at hand, short of that it is a big old coincidence.


I guess we will all see

in the meantime, stating thing as fact does make it so, once this goes to court and all evidence is presented from both sides and there is a judgement then it is SO.
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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2011, 10:20 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:in the meantime, stating thing as fact does make it so, once this goes to court and all evidence is presented from both sides and there is a judgement then it is SO.


This sounds sarcastic to me, but you may not mean it that way... :| (I fully admit that this has become emotionally charged and not as neutral as it should be.)

In any case, the above is my view on the matter. It looks to me like a copy. The opinion of the court may differ, and I accept that.
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Postby sfbullygirl » February 1st, 2011, 10:40 pm

mnp13 wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:in the meantime, stating thing as fact does make it so, once this goes to court and all evidence is presented from both sides and there is a judgement then it is SO.


This sounds sarcastic to me, but you may not mean it that way... :| (I fully admit that this has become emotionally charged and not as neutral as it should be.)

In any case, the above is my view on the matter. It looks to me like a copy. The opinion of the court may differ, and I accept that.



no sarcam was intended..I truly mean this needs to be settled in court. We do all have our sides and we would like to think that the person we are backing is telling the truth..but as in all things only the people involved know the real truth and that is why in cases like this the courts will settle it. It is sad that it had to come to this but that is the way things go sometimes.

I do not have an issue with Noel believeing what she believes I do have an issue with a public outing of this issue to sway opinion and potentially ruin someones reputation again when none of us REALLY know the truth when it comes to both sides of all the issues brought up. Just like the tabloids often things are sensationalized or taken out of context and differ greatly from the reality of the situation.
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Postby madremissy » February 1st, 2011, 11:06 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:I do not have an issue with Noel believeing what she believes I do have an issue with a public outing of this issue to sway opinion and potentially ruin someones reputation again when none of us REALLY know the truth when it comes to both sides of all the issues brought up. Just like the tabloids often things are sensationalized or taken out of context and differ greatly from the reality of the situation.


This has been my concern as well. :(

Edited to add, that I have my concerns of this post being posted on Facebook as well. It was just a way to spread the whole situation all over the place.
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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2011, 11:29 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:no sarcam was intended..I truly mean this needs to be settled in court. We do all have our sides and we would like to think that the person we are backing is telling the truth..but as in all things only the people involved know the real truth and that is why in cases like this the courts will settle it. It is sad that it had to come to this but that is the way things go sometimes.


We agree 100% on everything you wrote here.

madremissy wrote:Edited to add, that I have my concerns of this post being posted on Facebook as well. It was just a way to spread the whole situation all over the place.

I do not have intentions of posting it elsewhere. I would hope that my words are not re-posted without my permission.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 2nd, 2011, 12:56 am

mnp13 wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:no sarcam was intended..I truly mean this needs to be settled in court. We do all have our sides and we would like to think that the person we are backing is telling the truth..but as in all things only the people involved know the real truth and that is why in cases like this the courts will settle it. It is sad that it had to come to this but that is the way things go sometimes.


We agree 100% on everything you wrote here.

madremissy wrote:Edited to add, that I have my concerns of this post being posted on Facebook as well. It was just a way to spread the whole situation all over the place.

I do not have intentions of posting it elsewhere. I would hope that my words are not re-posted without my permission.


A link to this thread has been posted on Facebook, your words are not reposted that I have seen or am aware of. My attorney would GLADLY shoot me for doing that but I guess that is just the difference in counsel. I dunno

Like I said earlier, I ( personally) have seen no proof and I really have no vested interest in this one way or another. I wish both parties luck with your cases and hopefully once the truth comes out we will be informed.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 2nd, 2011, 1:03 am

And to clarify, I am NOT doubting Michelle's word, just stating I have not seen it myself.
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Postby DemoDick » February 2nd, 2011, 12:11 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:Well if she has a case that is great she needs to go to a lawyer and prove that Rebecca found her secret hidden pages and photobucket or whatever hosting site she uses, account and downloaded that picture and then made a copy. Unlike Paco and Brad this collar picture was not available for viewing anywhere by anyone to copy unless they happened to randomly type find her photobucket account take pictures. If that can be proven then there is a case for theft or copyright or hacking or whatever the legal issue is at hand, short of that it is a big old coincidence.


You clearly don't understand the legal burden of proof for a civil case involving these matters.

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Postby DemoDick » February 2nd, 2011, 12:21 pm

...or standard of proof.

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Postby sfbullygirl » February 2nd, 2011, 1:50 pm

oh but I do Dick....I was an operations manager for a legal service for 15 years, whose job it was to subpoena records for civil cases and take depostions so I am aware of the legalities.

IF this gets to civil court then subpoenas will be issued on both sides, depositions taken under oath and at the very least I would expect that both parties computer records will be accessed as well subpoenas issued to the photo hosting account and web server account to obtain records that show that Rebecca's actual IP address did in fact download those files, which if it cannot there is no basis for this accusation since Noel does not sell this collar on her website and has never posted a picture for public viewing anywhere to my knowledge.

Then, perhaps they can also get down to the final verdict on whether someone has the leagl right to claim copyright when they use commercially available materials for the creation of their products, when they do not actually file a copyright for said product, and feel that because they made it they now claim rights to it. Much like if one of us buy a commercially available fabric and then make a collar from it...does that mean that no other collar maker out there can then make a collar from that same fabric.

It will be an interesting battle for sure.
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Postby DemoDick » February 2nd, 2011, 3:09 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:oh but I do Dick....I was an operations manager for a legal service for 15 years, whose job it was to subpoena records for civil cases and take depostions so I am aware of the legalities.


Forgive me, from your writings I would never have surmised that you held such a position. What is an "operations manager"? Was deposing witnesses and subpeonaing records the full scope of your responsibilities?

IF this gets to civil court then subpoenas will be issued on both sides, depositions taken under oath and at the very least I would expect that both parties computer records will be accessed as well subpoenas issued to the photo hosting account and web server account to obtain records that show that Rebecca's actual IP address did in fact download those files, which if it cannot there is no basis for this accusation since Noel does not sell this collar on her website and has never posted a picture for public viewing anywhere to my knowledge.


Everyone already understand that it is entirely possible to win a civil judgement based on a preponderance of evidence, and that in reality this can have NOTHING to do with what is fact and what is not. It's that whole "justice vs. the law" thing.

We are concurrently discussing two different standards of proof in error. There is both a legal standard and a personal one. It is entirely possible to steal an idea and get away with it legally, just like it's possible to break a criminal law and walk. In court what you know is irrelevant. It's what you can prove (PBARD or POE depending on the court), that matters. This standard is necessary for court, but wholly inappropriate for most other purposes. To wit:

I do not believe that people should should base their personal beliefs on what has or has not been proven, or supported, in civil court proceedings. No one does that, because it's silly. I am noting with interest that it is actually quite possible to predict who will take which side in this, based largely on personal allegiances, as well as the myriad of tactics they will use to defend and justify the actions of their associates, as necessary. It's almost Pavlovian. I suppose it's the human nature to tend to our own. Tribalism got us this far, after all.

Then, perhaps they can also get down to the final verdict on whether someone has the leagl right to claim copyright when they use commercially available materials for the creation of their products, when they do not actually file a copyright for said product, and feel that because they made it they now claim rights to it. Much like if one of us buy a commercially available fabric and then make a collar from it...does that mean that no other collar maker out there can then make a collar from that same fabric.


Yes, when we boil it all down, in terms of legality, copyright is probably the only issue. However, in terms of basing a decision on whom to believe, copyright has little to no value.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone did bring conclusive evidence forward demonstrating that another party stole their ideas and profited from them, causing a financial loss to the originator, only to have the courts fail to act at all. Justice vs. the law.

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Postby sfbullygirl » February 2nd, 2011, 3:33 pm

DemoDick wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:oh but I do Dick....I was an operations manager for a legal service for 15 years, whose job it was to subpoena records for civil cases and take depostions so I am aware of the legalities.


Forgive me, from your writings I would never have surmised that you held such a position. What is an "operations manager"? Was deposing witnesses and subpeonaing records the full scope of your responsibilities?

IF this gets to civil court then subpoenas will be issued on both sides, depositions taken under oath and at the very least I would expect that both parties computer records will be accessed as well subpoenas issued to the photo hosting account and web server account to obtain records that show that Rebecca's actual IP address did in fact download those files, which if it cannot there is no basis for this accusation since Noel does not sell this collar on her website and has never posted a picture for public viewing anywhere to my knowledge.


Everyone already understand that it is entirely possible to win a civil judgement based on a preponderance of evidence, and that in reality this can have NOTHING to do with what is fact and what is not. It's that whole "justice vs. the law" thing.

We are concurrently discussing two different standards of proof in error. There is both a legal standard and a personal one. It is entirely possible to steal an idea and get away with it legally, just like it's possible to break a criminal law and walk. In court what you know is irrelevant. It's what you can prove (PBARD or POE depending on the court), that matters. This standard is necessary for court, but wholly inappropriate for most other purposes. To wit:

I do not believe that people should should base their personal beliefs on what has or has not been proven, or supported, in civil court proceedings. No one does that, because it's silly. I am noting with interest that it is actually quite possible to predict who will take which side in this, based largely on personal allegiances, as well as the myriad of tactics they will use to defend and justify the actions of their associates, as necessary. It's almost Pavlovian. I suppose it's the human nature to tend to our own. Tribalism got us this far, after all.

Then, perhaps they can also get down to the final verdict on whether someone has the leagl right to claim copyright when they use commercially available materials for the creation of their products, when they do not actually file a copyright for said product, and feel that because they made it they now claim rights to it. Much like if one of us buy a commercially available fabric and then make a collar from it...does that mean that no other collar maker out there can then make a collar from that same fabric.


Yes, when we boil it all down, in terms of legality, copyright is probably the only issue. However, in terms of basing a decision on whom to believe, copyright has little to no value.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone did bring conclusive evidence forward demonstrating that another party stole their ideas and profited from them, causing a financial loss to the originator, only to have the courts fail to act at all. Justice vs. the law.

Demo Dick


Sorry my level of writing seems to indicate that I am of lesser intelligence, or so that seems to be what you are saying, unless that is my lesser intelligence showing again. I am not going to post my resume to satisfy your need to validate my statement, seems boring and unnecessary...but I ran an operation of 80 employees and dealt with law firms and defense insurance companies it a nutshell..oh I also have a paralegal certification as well not that that means anything I am sure.

You keep saying how neutral you are but anyone who reads this reads otherwise, and your statement is accurtate we tend ot protect out own. Using my own logic and personal knowledge of Rebecca I find the initial claims absured, I am not basign this on any other information presented on any other issue poosted with other people, that is their egg to fry.

Nothing claimed in this thread is "proof", simple assertions by a party who thinks they have been wronged, the remedy for that is court where both parties can offer up evidence to support their case..if it even makes it that far, which I doubt it will. After depositions and the discovery phase the attorney's will most likely look to settle out of court for this issue..just my opinion not a fact.

so...why keep arguing this, I myself only post to keep this relevant to the actual charge at hand and not some extraneous claims by other people that did not do anything about their supposed issues with Rebecca..so, if Noel thinks she has a case then get on with it already and git er done as they say.
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Postby DemoDick » February 2nd, 2011, 3:45 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:Sorry my level of writing seems to indicate that I am of lesser intelligence, or so that seems to be what you are saying, unless that is my lesser intelligence showing again.


No, I really had no idea you had any professional legal experience.

I am not going to post my resume to satisfy your need to validate my statement, seems boring and unnecessary...but I ran an operation of 80 employees and dealt with law firms and defense insurance companies it a nutshell..oh I also have a paralegal certification as well not that that means anything I am sure.


I actually served as a paralegal for a few days while on light duty last year. They sent me up to the office and I prepared and submitted warrant applications, which is what I normally do in my patrol car, except the initial Crime Report had already been written, so it was pretty cushy. Also I had a pop machine with Coke Zero.

You keep saying how neutral you are but anyone who reads this reads otherwise, and your statement is accurtate we tend ot protect out own. Using my own logic and personal knowledge of Rebecca I find the initial claims absured, I am not basign this on any other information presented on any other issue poosted with other people, that is their egg to fry.


You opinion of my neutrality in this matter is irrelevant, as is the judgement of anyone to the contrary. I am neutral, as I have no stake in the matter beyond what I find interesting to discuss about it. As I already stated, I find the timing of the products coincidental to the point of suspicion.

Nothing claimed in this thread is "proof", simple assertions by a party who thinks they have been wronged, the remedy for that is court where both parties can offer up evidence to support their case..if it even makes it that far, which I doubt it will. After depositions and the discovery phase the attorney's will most likely look to settle out of court for this issue..just my opinion not a fact.


That's fine.

so...why keep arguing this, I myself only post to keep this relevant to the actual charge at hand and not some extraneous claims by other people that did not do anything about their supposed issues with Rebecca..so, if Noel thinks she has a case then get on with it already and git er done as they say.


Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

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Postby sfbullygirl » February 2nd, 2011, 4:08 pm

DemoDick wrote: Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick



well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me 8)
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Postby BigDogBuford » February 2nd, 2011, 4:13 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:
DemoDick wrote: Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick



well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me 8)


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Postby Jenn » February 2nd, 2011, 4:24 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:
DemoDick wrote: Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick



well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me 8)

:giggle: I've avoided this, other than reading of course thanks for the giggle! On a side note, just wanted to say I fully respect your position & words as being a friend to your friend, totally commendable!
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 2nd, 2011, 4:34 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:
DemoDick wrote: Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick



well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me 8)


Munkee did it, you know how he is :nono: I tell him not to but he always has to show off his mad hacker skillz
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Postby sfbullygirl » February 2nd, 2011, 6:48 pm

Jenn wrote:
sfbullygirl wrote:
DemoDick wrote: Larry the Cable Guy is going to sue your ass for that.

Demo Dick



well he will have to prove that I actually typed this perhaps someone hacked into my account and is actually typing this for me 8)

:giggle: I've avoided this, other than reading of course thanks for the giggle! On a side note, just wanted to say I fully respect your position & words as being a friend to your friend, totally commendable!



Well thank you...to clarify yes I have been in support of Rebecca, but if it were proven in a court of law or the like that Rebecca did what Noel alleges of hacking and downloading her designs from her accounts and then copying the collar, then I would condemn that just as strongly as others have and my apology would be made to Noel, just as I would expect all her supporters to do should the evidence show otherwise. As much as any of us "think" we know these internet people we call friends, you simple cannot 100% so there is always a margin for error.

My issue with this situation is the very public outing of it. If Noel thought there was as issue and had proof of that her attorney should have issued a cease and desist and if that did not work then off to court you go and let them deal with it. Instead we have the peoples court being played out for entertainment value ..and maybe it is just Noels friends got a little overzealous in their rush to defend their friend and bring to light a wrong they felt was commmited.

Any way you slice it the situation sucks for all involved
I have told Noel all this and stand by the fact I just want the truth not he said/she said.
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