What constitutes the theft of an "idea" or "design"?

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Postby Hoyden » January 31st, 2011, 9:47 pm

Michele wrote:I know Rebecca and I will tell you one thing. She does not STEAL!! She doesn't have to. She is a very talented artist that does amazing work.

Hoyden: I know you and I know that you are a liar. And this goes way back to Mr. Eric from Smilin Pit Bull Rescue.

You are jealous. That's what it comes down to. Instead of bad mouthing another artist, why don't you try to learn from them. This is about the dogs, not about your insecurity issues.


Oh, I know who you are. You are just ticked off because I refused to send you information about Eric because I didn't trust YOU. When I give someone my word that what they tell me will stay with me, I keep my word.

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 31st, 2011, 9:49 pm

Alright, let's get back to the subject at hand. Deb already warned you guys - please don't make her come back! She gets cranky when she has to intercede twice!
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 9:51 pm

Well, here's an interesting thing to look at - go to Ella's lead and look at the Enzo collar (if it seems to be "missing" just do a google search). Now check out the Ranger by St Leathercraft.

Again, it's not a single item, it's a pattern of behavior.

And I'm sorry, "oops I got caught" is not a reason to pull photos that belong to someone else off of your site. There is a saying that "it's easier to beg forgiveness than ask permission" but usually that's said tongue in cheek.
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 31st, 2011, 10:06 pm

that collar was never for sale on her site and Ana Poe made it before Brad did so I guess he copied it from her right...or it is just Rebecca that copies everyone

You all have some details but not the whole story.

Maybe you should change the title of this thread since it is not a generic thread about copyrights it is how many times can we seem to nail Rebecca on copying something without all the facts. Which I will not be posting since that will be handled in court as I am told.
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 10:16 pm

Sorry, doesn't look the same to me.
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 31st, 2011, 10:40 pm

they all have the same concept..a double layer leather collar with commercially available conchos that anyone can use and then rivets to hold the second layer on the collar. This is a bad example of "copying" really since it is not a creative use of spots or conchos it is a pretty basic simple design.

This also implies that any one who makes collars should know about every other collar makers designs and then check all of those collar makers sites before making a custom ordered collar.

In any event this will all be sorted in court and then we will all have the definitve answer on this copyright issue when using commercially available products that anyone can buy.

I would think that if some collar makers are worried about others making their designs they should have their materials custom made for their specific product. There are some such as a place called Hot Dogs All Dressed that have their conchos made for them so that no one else can make a collar using their conchos and thus no ones collars look like theirs. It seems to me if you want a unique and specific product you need to proprietary materials not commercially available one.
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 10:56 pm

It seems to me if you want a unique and specific product you need to proprietary materials not commercially available one.

Good point as well.
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Postby AllAmericanPUP » January 31st, 2011, 11:06 pm

sfbullygirl wrote:they all have the same concept..a double layer leather collar with commercially available conchos that anyone can use and then rivets to hold the second layer on the collar. This is a bad example of "copying" really since it is not a creative use of spots or conchos it is a pretty basic simple design.

This also implies that any one who makes collars should know about every other collar makers designs and then check all of those collar makers sites before making a custom ordered collar.

In any event this will all be sorted in court and then we will all have the definitve answer on this copyright issue when using commercially available products that anyone can buy.

I would think that if some collar makers are worried about others making their designs they should have their materials custom made for their specific product. There are some such as a place called Hot Dogs All Dressed that have their conchos made for them so that no one else can make a collar using their conchos and thus no ones collars look like theirs. It seems to me if you want a unique and specific product you need to proprietary materials not commercially available one.



Agreed!!
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Postby Rossignol » February 1st, 2011, 8:23 am

I want to address another issue that sometimes comes up, but first let me acknowledge another comment.

Someone mentioned maybe we should all familiarize ourselves with other makers products so as not to duplicate a style or pattern. I agree, and as far as I know, we do. As much as is possible. I keep things stored on my favorites, and reference sites periodically. This leads me to the thing I want to address.

It is important to know what others are making, not only so we dont duplicate anothers work, but because folks will sometimes email pics to us asking if we can do this or that. Its impotant to me to be able to identify the maker and product. Watermarks help... but arent always present.

This is also the case with my Ranger collar. Let me also say here, my Ranger collar isnt just the polished stars, really it is the style of construction. It is listed on my site as being a collar with an overlay and your choice of four conchos. (I can provide several individual examples if need be as well as Ranger collars ordered with no conchos) When I made the first Ranger collar, I wasnt given a picture in this case, but was asked to do a collar with an overlay and four polished stars. Admittedly, at that time I wasnt aware of the collar from Paco Collars. Hence the need to make ourselves aware. It really is a responsibility and obligation I think, not just as courtesy to our competitors, but to our clients, so that we continue to offer the best possible product, as original as possible and and so that we remain competitive and focused. It truly benifits our clients, and also each of us as makers because we keep encouraging each other and pushing each other to do better.

Please know, that we do turn people away if they have their heart set on a design we know to be unique to someone else. As mentioned, when we are sent pictures from Paco Collars or California Collar Company or where ever, and the sender is determined to have "that" collar, then we recommend that is who you talk to. Otherwise, we are happy to help design something different.
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Postby TinaMartin » February 1st, 2011, 9:15 am

Each artist in a given trade has something that sets them apart from everyone else. It's kind of like a flavor. Noel's collars read as straight vintage to me, Brad's read as classic leather craft, Paco to me has a more modern feel, Ella's to me read as more modern bling. All four work in leather but have very distinct qualities. Anytime an artist makes something they have a natural tendency to gravitate towards a specific style. When an artist changes what is viewed as theirs drastically questions are bound to come up especially if it has a similar feel to something another artist makes.
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Postby Michele » February 1st, 2011, 9:58 am

Hoyden wrote:
Michele wrote:I know Rebecca and I will tell you one thing. She does not STEAL!! She doesn't have to. She is a very talented artist that does amazing work.

Hoyden: I know you and I know that you are a liar. And this goes way back to Mr. Eric from Smilin Pit Bull Rescue.

You are jealous. That's what it comes down to. Instead of bad mouthing another artist, why don't you try to learn from them. This is about the dogs, not about your insecurity issues.


Oh, I know who you are. You are just ticked off because I refused to send you information about Eric because I didn't trust YOU. When I give someone my word that what they tell me will stay with me, I keep my word.

I'd rather let some stranger think less of me than to violate the trust placed in me.


Oh, boo hoo....tell it to someone who gives a poop....you gave your bullshit story to alot of people.

DemoDick: I am not siding with Mr. Eric at all. Quite the opposite. Alot of people were spoon fed Hoyden's crap for years and years.

I apologize for going off topic. It won't happen again.

Again, I know Rebecca and I know she does not steal. She's a very talented artist.
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Postby TinaMartin » February 1st, 2011, 10:03 am

Michele wrote:Oh, boo hoo....tell it to someone who gives a poop....you gave your bullshit story to alot of people.

DemoDick: I am not siding with Mr. Eric at all. Quite the opposite. Alot of people were spoon fed Hoyden's crap for years and years.

I apologize for going off topic. It won't happen again.

Again, I know Rebecca and I know she does not steal. She's a very talented artist.

Wow just wow...
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Postby DemoDick » February 1st, 2011, 10:46 am

Michele wrote:DemoDick: I am not siding with Mr. Eric at all. Quite the opposite. Alot of people were spoon fed Hoyden's crap for years and years.


Thanks for clarifying.

cheekymunkee, what would you consider satisfactory evidence of plagiarism?

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Postby cheekymunkee » February 1st, 2011, 4:03 pm

Demo, I don't think at this point any thing would matter. The posted pics would have been huge but it is now way too late.

IMO, if Noel has retained counsel she should listen to his advice and so should Rebecca. This isnt something that should be decided on a message board if they have spent the money to hire attorneys I think they should let them handle it.
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Postby Michele » February 1st, 2011, 4:17 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Demo, I don't think at this point any thing would matter. The posted pics would have been huge but it is now way too late.

IMO, if Noel has retained counsel she should listen to his advice and so should Rebecca. This isnt something that should be decided on a message board if they have spent the money to hire attorneys I think they should let them handle it.


I agree and being that I work in a major law firm, I can tell you this....NO lawyer is going to be "monitoring" a thread, while munching on popcorn. :rolleyes2:
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Postby mnp13 » February 1st, 2011, 4:54 pm

Michele wrote:I agree and being that I work in a major law firm, I can tell you this....NO lawyer is going to be "monitoring" a thread, while munching on popcorn. :rolleyes2:


I can't speak for Noel, but I believe there was some sarcasm to that post. and if that's what he told her, then perhaps she missed his sarcasm. :| Or maybe he likes forums, I know a couple of lawyers who are online more than I am.
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Postby Michele » February 1st, 2011, 5:00 pm

mnp13 wrote:
Michele wrote:I agree and being that I work in a major law firm, I can tell you this....NO lawyer is going to be "monitoring" a thread, while munching on popcorn. :rolleyes2:


I can't speak for Noel, but I believe there was some sarcasm to that post. and if that's what he told her, then perhaps she missed his sarcasm. :| Or maybe he likes forums, I know a couple of lawyers who are online more than I am.


Absolutely no sarcasm at all. I just don't like it when someone I know gets accused of something that is a lie.

And generally speaking, if anyone retains a lawyer and they are surfing the web, RUN, don't walk away.... :D
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Postby DemoDick » February 1st, 2011, 6:31 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Demo, I don't think at this point any thing would matter. The posted pics would have been huge but it is now way too late.


I'm not talking about a preponderance of evidence for legal purposes, I'm talking about what would convince you personally. Did you see the pictures?

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Postby cheekymunkee » February 1st, 2011, 6:38 pm

No Demo, I didn't see them. Not the pics of the collar we are speaking about in this thread. The links to the other collars by Rossingol, Paco and Rebecca I have seen. I have seen that design before also. I cant tell you if the construction of the collar I saw was the same however.
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Postby cheekymunkee » February 1st, 2011, 6:39 pm

Oh and perhaps the actual IP logs, not just a screen shot of an IP.
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