Banging on crate

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Postby ParisStreetPitCrew » January 28th, 2011, 11:42 pm

In my job, I have occasion to talk with owners of all different breeds.
Being that I have only really ever owned pit bulls and been immersed in pit bull "culture", sometimes other breeds and their expectations, temperaments, etc are somewhat foreign to me.
I heard the same thing from two owners this week that kind of puzzled me-- non-pit bull breed dogs with some sort of behavior issues (seemingly genetic, not necessarily environmental) and the owners both mentioned that their dogs "get really angry when you bang on their crate".

This statement (as I mentioned, heard twice in the same week from different people with different dogs) was STRANGE to me for a couple reasons:
1. I don't think it is too out of the ordinary or unheard of to expect that a dog might get mad at a person banging on their crate, given that it is "their" space
2.WHY the heck are owners banging on their dogs' crates?? I don't think I have ever had the occasion where I thought about banging my dogs' crates while they were in there (or when the crate was empty, for that matter). Could there be a purpose to doing this that I'm missing?
I discussed #2 with a coworker who has a pup and she mentioned that in one of her training classes or books, or something, they were told to hit the crate if the dog was barking. Am I the only one who thinks this is CRAZY advice?? What am I missing?
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 28th, 2011, 11:45 pm

I've done it out of sheer frustration a couple times, I have to admit! But I didn't actually expect the dog to stop barking, lol .

I'm with you, though - not sure why they're surprised that the dog doesn't enjoy having its crate banged on...
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Postby ParisStreetPitCrew » January 28th, 2011, 11:50 pm

It just kind of seems to me that if the dog already has behavioral issues, banging on the crate might exacerbate the issue, right?
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 29th, 2011, 12:02 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I've done it out of sheer frustration a couple times, I have to admit! But I didn't actually expect the dog to stop barking, lol .

I'm with you, though - not sure why they're surprised that the dog doesn't enjoy having its crate banged on...


I've been known to bang a boarding/foster dog's crate out of frustration...but it just makes me briefly feel better, and maybe shuts the dog up for a millisecond. It's usually during "that time of the month" for me. ;)
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Postby mnp13 » January 30th, 2011, 10:06 pm

I do it to Riggs when he's really pissing me off. Sometimes he shuts up for 1.5 seconds. Sometimes he gets really mad and well... Jody knows what that looks like! lol

But really? It does nothing at all productive.
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Postby pitsnok » January 30th, 2011, 11:38 pm

I sometimes do it to Boss in an attempt to distract him if he's REALLY PISSED but... yeah it rarely works.

Edit:
I will say though, 'banging' sounds violent. I actually more like knock at the back of it...in the opposite direction that he is facing.
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Postby ParisStreetPitCrew » January 30th, 2011, 11:54 pm

So, there's not like some fancy training technique that I'm unaware of because I don't know other breeds? :D :oops: :|
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 12:09 am

No, just owners doing dumb, non productive things because their dogs are being ass wipes in their crates.

Guilty as charged.
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Postby furever_pit » January 31st, 2011, 12:42 am

I find it somewhat odd that the dogs are getting "really angry" to be honest.
I'm a somewhat clumsy person and I have run into and banged against my dogs' crates and they don't get angry or bark at me. They might stir for a second, they might not.

It's not how I would teach a dog to be quiet in the crate, but I have done it out of frustration on the rare occassion. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
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Postby Malli » January 31st, 2011, 12:51 am

Allison, think about when it's done: when the dog is most worked up, after freaking out for a couple of minutes ;)

If someone Oscar didn't know did it to him in the car or from the other side of the door, he'd probably "freak out"
I'm pretty sure most of the "wound up" (and remember none of the dogs I work with have much of any training) dogs at my work would have that response. I see it as kind of an in-crate combo of frustration/redirection...

I have banged on kennels and crates before, but as with everyone else, it wasn't using any fancy training techniques! ;)
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Postby furever_pit » January 31st, 2011, 1:06 am

I could see that. Didn't really think about it since I don't have dogs that freak out in their crates.
Not sure what my dogs would do if a stranger came up and messed with their crates.
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Postby Jenn » January 31st, 2011, 1:16 am

mnp13 wrote:No, just owners doing dumb, non productive things because their dogs are being ass wipes in their crates.

Guilty as charged.

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Postby Malli » January 31st, 2011, 1:26 am

lol sorry, I should have put, OSCAR would freak out, people just try to TALK to him through a car window or door and he loses his sh!t :rolleyes2: :doh:

Serves them right for trying to speak to him to reassure him.
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Postby Tubular Toby » January 31st, 2011, 1:42 am

I am really glad this came up. It makes me feel a little more normal... Haha! Glad to know even the people that I admire for training advice have their human moments. ;) I've done it a time or two for a barking dog. Luckily, Toby is a champ in his crate.
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 31st, 2011, 9:40 am

*stands up*
*wipes sweaty hands on pant legs*
*clears throat*
"hello, I'm Erin...and I've been known to bang on a crate in frustration."
*(usually a boarding dog with no crate manners...since my dogs don't stay in crates)*

That said...Inara goes apeshit when people are NEAR her crate in the car or at flyball tournaments. Like "I'm going to rip your throat out and feed it to my brother the Wiener" screaming/barking. It's terrific. We're so much better in general...but the crate guarding is still bad. When I say "NEAR" her crate, I mean, they might be strangers that have walked 10-20' away from the van, but she can HEAR them talking. At flyball, they could be 5' away, but she doesn't recognize their voices. So yeah, she'd flip out and try to eat anyone that "banged" on her crate while she was in it.
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 11:24 am

Riggs doesn't bark... with the rare exception of when someone is outside and he feels the need to let me know but even that is not consistent, he mostly wuffs and growls then. And that one time on the porch when he wanted to eat the Church people (wow, that was weird) Oh wait... I lied. He barks his head off in his crate. Will... Not... Shut... Up...

I have done everything. and I mean EVERYTHING. When I first got him I did the "ignore you until you are quiet and then I'll let you out" It took literally hours to get him out of his crate sometimes. This would be after I was at work for 8 hours, then we'd spend two hours trying to get him out so he could go to the bathroom. I admit, after a month (maybe longer? definitely not less) I gave up on that because I actually had things I had to do besides stand in my room ignoring him for being an ass.

"Then there was the don't come into the room when he's flipping out." That kept me prisoner in my own house because he would be quiet until he heard me move, then start barking again. His crate was in my bedroom at that point, so you can see the problem there. I slept on the couch more than once.

In the car all bets are off, he does not tolerate anyone looking at him in his crate. (We love you Jody!) Well, I can because he thinks I'm going to let him out and he gets all excited, but a stranger? Uh, no. If you approach confidently and say "Hey Riggs, you want to come out?" He's pretty much ok, but just "looking?" or "hey doggie, how are you?" No. He does not like that. And even I can get him to flip out at me if I tap on the glass and tease him :oops: (I only do that after he scares my friends, so that they know it's nothing personal.) And frankly, I'm ok with the car thing because sometimes it's useful, though scaring Police Officers at 2 am when I get pulled over isn't cool... though he laughed (from the other side of the road) evidently Riggs took a while to even notice the officer - you know, beauty sleep and all, then had to let out one ROAR to make a grand entrance.

Currently, in the house he barks until you get near him, then he gets all excited or just is quiet because he thinks you're going to let him out. He also sorta stays quiet (mostly whines) if he can see you. Bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause, bark bark, pause.... until you are ready to kill him.

I've used an ecollar high enough to make me cry. If I put the collar on him he's silent until the battery dies, then starts barking again. I had a spray commander that worked like a dream, until he chewed it up (only collar he has ever touched, I love that dog, I love that dog, I love that dog...) I tried an ecollar on vibrate in a metal dish on his crate, startled the hell out of him and he was silent but the batteries die really fast doing that, so it's inconsistent. I've tried the "treat for silence" but that's practically impossible because he's quiet when you approach the crate, and that quickly turned into "bark to get mom to come into the room and give me a treat." I tried a regular shock bark collar, but that was horrible, just horrible and I'll never do that to him again. I can't use an ecollar on vibrate on his neck because it scares him, and though I'm perfectly ok with compulsion training, I will not scare him, and the vibrate scares him. (The only thing I've ever seen in five years that really truly upsets him on that level.)

His crate used to be in the laundry room, so I could sneak up on him when he was barking and wack it - and he'd shut up for a few minutes... Just the startle factor I'm sure, then start up again.

So... why do I bang on the crate? Because it makes me feel better for half a second to be obnoxious and rude right back at him. Does it do anything in the long run? No. It hasn't hurt our relationship, hasn't made a dent in the behavior, I've broken more than one crate, I've ruined more than one crate door, and it hurts my hand.

As for him getting mad right back, well, that's rare and hasn't happened in a loooong time. But it used to more frequently. But honestly, I can't blame him. Here comes mom, screaming her fool head off, and there's Riggs stuck in his crate and unable to get away so he let's me know that he doesn't appreciate my behavior. :| Can't say I blame him.

So that's my story. Quite frankly, he just plain hates his crate. He does the spinning run to it at dinner time "are you still behind me? are you still behind me?" and when we come in from going to the bathroom because he knows he gets crated when Connor goes out, and the Fairy Dog Mom treats (we love you Christine) have made a huge difference in that. But as soon as the treat is finished, the barking stars.

According to Demo, he only barks when I'm home. When I'm around, he wants to be out with me. That started day one, and I've never been able to fix it. He doesn't care much for men, so I don't think he cares if he's out or not with Demo.

What's really funny is if he finally gives up (after hours and hours) he puts his back to the crate door as if to say "ok, fine, I'll ignore you too." And he sits and pouts. It's really cute... in an infuriating kind of way.

The "smack the crate" is the only time I ever "discipline" when I'm mad/frustrated. I do not interact with my dogs when I am angry with them... except that obviously. Ruby also hates her crate, due to separation anxiety (also from day one) but when she's in trouble she RUNS to it because she knows I won't touch her in it. Well, I will drag her out by whatever I can reach to get whatever food out of her mouth that she stole, but that's it. And when I do that, I give it to one of the other dogs right infront of her (I don't know if that's the "right" thing to do either, but it makes me feel better.)

But bark at a decoy in training? Oh Dear God, we can't possibly do that! Little crap head....

So, that's my story... and though there are lots of things that frustrate me, the crate things is the one thing that just completely defeats me... and speaking of defeating, I have to get back to the program I'm writing that is fighting back something fierce.
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Postby pitsnok » January 31st, 2011, 3:14 pm

THANK YOU MICHELLE!

I feel like I'm not a horrible human!
Boss goes in his crate, all the crate games we've played with him have helped so much. He'll go in when it's time to eat, go in when we tell him to, sometimes just go in by himself... but when we close the door to latch it, if we don't have a treat to feed him through the wires... he goes nuts. Okay wait, he goes nuts when we let the other dogs out. But if they are staying in their crates too, he has no complaints whatsoever.
Sometimes he will calm down as soon as we walk away, sometimes he won't. I guess it just depends on how he feels that day...
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Postby mnp13 » January 31st, 2011, 4:04 pm

pitsnok wrote:I feel like I'm not a horrible human!


What? Yes you are....

You're horrible, just like me. :D
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Postby Rossignol » January 31st, 2011, 7:51 pm

So, I'm reading all this.. and I hear what everyone is sayin. I do it too. But for some reason I feel like my experiences are much different. Positive even.

Gidget, one of my bulldogs is very prey driven. It started as a rolly polly pup, barely 8 weeks old. She started out chasing my youngest daughter's (then 2 years old, now 4) play lawn mower, you know the kind you push around and it clicks and pops? So Gidget would get all kinds of riled up and would chase the thing lookin for a place to grab hold. Gidge is now 2 years old and is still very much the same. I try to use her as needed to control nuisance animals, like raccoons or possum. If they dont run (and they often dont) she doesnt want them. I have even seen her charge a raccoon and come to a full stop nose to nose with the animal because it didnt run.

So you may be wonderin how this is at all relevant. Chase and prey drive, in the house, with the vacuum. I'd rather not have to pull Gidge's lips and tongue from the thing, so she gets crated. She has a fit and stomps and digs, barks and cries because she cant get it. She has busted crate pans (plural) and even started diggin through the floor. So I smack the crate and holler "QUIET!" After a couple times, she shuts up and all is well. I hit the crate and holler because it shifts her focus, breaks her point so to speak. She'll quite barking, but she still stomps and uses her head to batter the crate door. I dont care. Shes awful hard headed anyway. But she quits barkin. And she'll still run down anything that moves, rabbit, squirrel, ball, rope, lure... vacuum. I dont discipline the behavior, but in the crate, I can almost isolate and discipline the barking, as thats the behavior that warrants a blow to the crate, and that is what stops. After that, Gidge can dig, hammer and paw all she wants... weird dog.
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Postby Hoyden » January 31st, 2011, 10:08 pm

Birdie is rarely crated, but when she is - she HATES it and does this horrific high pitched yodeling barky whine thing that makes you want to kill the dog or rip out your ear drums.

I don't hit the crate because that will hurt MY hand. I do yell at her in the "demon voice from hell" and tell her she better shut the hell up. Surprisingly if she can see me when I yell at her, she shuts up. If she can't see me she won't.

Petey on the other hand had the loudest bark in dog-dom and NOTHING would shut that dog up.

No, take that back. Shoving your hand in his mouth would shut him up because he wouldn't bite you, but then you'd have to have your arm in the crate and if that happened, he won.

The vet was always amused when one of us would shove our hand in his mouth to shut him up. People in the vet's waiting area marveled at that.
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