What constitutes the theft of an "idea" or "design"?

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 27th, 2011, 9:10 pm

http://anapoeland.blogspot.com/2010/01/ ... grity.html

Artistic Integrity
I'm not gonna sugar coat it. I'm pretty pissed right now. Someone is copying our designs... again.

This isn't a unique situation. In fact, it's happened several times and I've even written about it before http://anapoeland.blogspot.com/2008/12/copy-cats.html (and, I might add, both companies/individuals referenced before have had positive outcomes and we actually refer customers to them now). I'd come off sounding like a broken record if this situation wasn't quite so unique and painful.

Basically, this individual made and posted a collar design that is my current dog's collar (The Xdog) layered atop of my deceased dog's collar (Paco's Ruadh collar). If it was an accident, I could forgive it, but it's not. I won't go into the details, but it's clear that it's a calculated move.

Ruadh Collar:
Image

xdog
Image

As an artist (*shuddering at my least favorite statement ever*), I find it really offensive when other people copy work exactly.

Now, I totally understand the concept of "inspiration" and "derivative." Let's face it, pretty much all of the cool things in this world have been invented. There is only so much room within which you can maneuver unless you are willing to create something totally outside of the realm of what the mind can handle, and when that happens it doesn't always have a great outcome.

Take music, for instance. The guitar is a medium that has been played for hundreds of years, yet even with all that time for innovation, there are only so many notes in existence. Try as you might, you can't change that. You also can't change the fact that "Wild Thing" and "Louie Louie" have the exact same chord progression and nearly identical strumming. To the average listener, however, they sound like totally different songs because, well, they are.

You can have things that are similar at the core and then take off in very different directions, and that's fine. That's the basis of design, of songwriting, etc.

But when you take something that's already made and do it again without making any significant changes, well than that's just copying. It's like the imitation designers you see on "The View" the morning after the Oscars, showcasing the duplication dresses they stayed up all night making, only out of crappier material. There's no improvement, no differentiation, you're just replicating something that's already been done. Where's the art in that? Where is the dialogue, the wit, the innovation?

The fact is there isn't any of that, and that's what bothers me about copy cats. And when you drag Paco (the dog, not the company) into something, then you make it personal.


And the collar in question:
Image
Last edited by pitbullmamaliz on January 28th, 2011, 4:57 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Reason: By Michelle to put in the pictures, they were links in the blog
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Postby Malli » January 28th, 2011, 1:02 am

lame :(
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Postby mnp13 » January 28th, 2011, 1:06 am

And lest someone thing this is a "dig up ancient history" thing, the same story is on repeat right now but with a different source stolen from.
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 28th, 2011, 1:53 am

:nono:
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Postby airwalk » January 28th, 2011, 2:08 pm

and this is the appropriate venue for this type of accusation exactly why??? and if there is sufficient proof ... why is it on a blog and not in an attorney's office...this frankly sounds like a competition issue to me...that's what business is all about. Get over it.
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Postby madremissy » January 28th, 2011, 2:13 pm

airwalk wrote:and this is the appropriate venue for this type of accusation exactly why??? and if there is sufficient proof ... why is it on a blog and not in an attorney's office...this frankly sounds like a competition issue to me...that's what business is all about. Get over it.


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Postby Renee750il » January 28th, 2011, 3:12 pm

I'd forgotten just how good my reasons for not bothering to post here anymore were. Nice. Really classy. Petty jealousies and petty snarking on a thread originally about a beloved dog -- and not loved only by her family -- who died tragically early.

Whoever started this crap up in this thread should be mortally ashamed of themselves. But they probably won't. How would you feel if it were your dog? Think about it.

If the mods have any sense of decency they will move the inappropriate posts to a new, freestanding thread.
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Postby LMM » January 28th, 2011, 3:37 pm

????
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Postby mnp13 » January 28th, 2011, 4:22 pm

The posts have nothing at all to do with the dog involved, she just happens to be wearing the collar in question. In fact, the posts have nothing at all to do with the dog herself, just with what she happens to be wearing, but I see your point, and will split the thread.
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Postby madremissy » January 28th, 2011, 5:15 pm

Thank you for splitting the thread but instead of having a picture of Ella why don't you just find a picture of the collar itself. There was nothing in the original post about selling the collar. It was a picture of Ella eating treats.
I still see a collar on a dog that is similar to many other collars I have seen made by different people.
If you want this to be a debate thread about what constitues the theft of an idea or design is fine but don't make it personal in the thread.
I think this should be handled by the parties involved not by people who are just getting bits and peices of the story.
That is just my 2 cents.
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Postby iluvk9 » January 28th, 2011, 6:07 pm

Renee750il wrote:I'd forgotten just how good my reasons for not bothering to post here anymore were. Nice. Really classy. Petty jealousies and petty snarking on a thread originally about a beloved dog -- and not loved only by her family -- who died tragically early.

Whoever started this crap up in this thread should be mortally ashamed of themselves. But they probably won't. How would you feel if it were your dog? Think about it.

If the mods have any sense of decency they will move the inappropriate posts to a new, freestanding thread.


Renee750il.....I didn't see the entire thread before it was edited, but I think you have a few of your facts wrong.

If you are referring to Pitbullmamaliz for "starting this crap", Liz, along with all the other participating members here, hold Ella's Leads, Ella and of course, Rebecca in HIGH REGARD.

And not for nothing, but you have had 4 posts here since you joined in 2008. So, you probably never read all the compliments we give Rebecca and how we ALL CRIED along with her when our Ella passed.
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Postby TinaMartin » January 28th, 2011, 6:12 pm

Any time a person takes something from another that they have no right to take. If someone else has done hard work on something including compiling resources and information I concider it theft.
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Postby airwalk » January 28th, 2011, 6:29 pm

but since it would appear there is no information beyond a blog post, I would respectfully not call that factual. Therefore, the entire conversation is in poor taste. It is crap stirring, nothing more.
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Postby BigDogBuford » January 28th, 2011, 7:44 pm

I'm very confused and clearly I've missed the drama llama again.

When it comes to making leather dog collars you've got two things in common: leather and metal studs. It seems to me that there are a finite number of patterns that you can do. You've got two artistic individuals working with the same materials. Is it so shocking that you may see repetitive stuff?

Then again, I know absolutely zero about this situation. :| And stealing is bad, mmmmmmkay?
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Postby DemoDick » January 28th, 2011, 8:16 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:I'm very confused and clearly I've missed the drama llama again.

When it comes to making leather dog collars you've got two things in common: leather and metal studs. It seems to me that there are a finite number of patterns that you can do. You've got two artistic individuals working with the same materials. Is it so shocking that you may see repetitive stuff?

Then again, I know absolutely zero about this situation. :| And stealing is bad, mmmmmmkay?


(speaking in very general terms here)

The same thing can be said for music. After all, there are only twelve notes and their associated chords (in Western music anyway), but when they are assembled in a fashion so similar to a preexisting piece that eyebrows get raised...that's when the lawyers get involved. Like when Huey Lewis sued Ray Parker Jr., Queen sued Vanilla Ice, and more recently, Joe Satriani sued Coldplay. IP is something that can and should be protected. How each individual case is handled depends on the persons involved.

When I was living hand-to-mouth as a musician, I had people blatantly plagiarize my work, and it is INFURIATING. I suspect if someone showed up on the local burlesque scene calling themselves Hotty MacKnotty, aping 90% of your routine, you'd be on them like flies on shit.

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Postby BigDogBuford » January 28th, 2011, 8:23 pm

Yes, that's all very true. It's always an interesting round table discussion at the burlesque conventions. Honestly, it's so saturated in this area that I wonder if there's any new material at all. Anyhoo.....

It seems like every other person I know online makes dog collars lately. Is there a problem with multiple people stealing the design from the same person? Did one person pioneer the whole genre of online collar making? Or is it one person stealing from another and then *another* person stealing from them? I honestly don't know. I'm out of the loop in the dog collar world....
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Postby DemoDick » January 28th, 2011, 8:31 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:Yes, that's all very true. It's always an interesting round table discussion at the burlesque conventions. Honestly, it's so saturated in this area that I wonder if there's any new material at all. Anyhoo.....

It seems like every other person I know online makes dog collars lately. Is there a problem with multiple people stealing the design from the same person? Did one person pioneer the whole genre of online collar making? Or is it one person stealing from another and then *another* person stealing from them? I honestly don't know. I'm out of the loop in the dog collar world....


It's exactly the same as any other artistic endeavor, be it music, burlesque, playwrighting, fiction, etc. If one person comes up with an original design and another "steals" it, to use your word, then yes it's wrong. If they create something strikingly similar as a matter of coincidence that's different. However, when it's as blatant as the particular cases I mentioned, then obviously legal action is appropriate. I don't really know enough of the particulars in the OP's case, but the "coincidence" defense only goes so far, and gets stretched really thin really fast.

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Postby TinaMartin » January 28th, 2011, 8:44 pm

This is stretched to the point of breaking!
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Postby sfbullygirl » January 28th, 2011, 9:12 pm

I would like to say a few things about this thread on behalf of Rebecca, not speaking for her just a little that I know of this situation before it goes off the rails.

I do not believe the collar posted above for Ella was never sold on Rebecca's site or to any customers, she made the collar for her dog origianlly and as far as I know it was a coincidence that it combined 2 of Ana's designs, yes it does happen. I believe they discussed this issue after Ana blogged about this and then contacted Rebecca, Rebecca took the collar off her site as she was not aware she had made the collar that looked similar to a combo of two of Ana's collars and never sold one of them as she felt it was the right thing to do.

The reason this issue is coming up again is I believe from some thing that was started yesterday on PBF. A few friends of Hoyden/Noel, I am guessing that is whom they were referring to as "my friend the collar maker", the reason I guess this is that I know she is into the historical stuff from reading her posts about it, if I am wrong someone in the know can correct me if they care to come out of the closet and be known otherwise I will refer to the person as "said collar maker"

The allegations on PBF were as follows

Rebecca hacked into said collar makers photo account and stole pictures of either designs or collars and then made a bunch of vintage collars based on this. There was no proof shown that this happened, no other said collar makers works posted to show they made the collars first, I myself have not seen them on said collar makers site for sale so I am not aware they exist.

Rebecca showed me a few weeks ago the pictures from a publically available internet site that she was using as inspiration for her designs, now the fact that these are historical/vintage, whatever you want to call it means there are probably lots of the same pics on various sites, books etc. So it is feasible that if 2 people are looking at the same picture and making their interpretation of a collar that was made 50-100 years ago, well then I guess there might be a duplication, but in either case neither of them are original works unless they put their own spin on it etc., and both are basically copying another design anyway..so is it really theirs...not sure about that.

The thing that gets me about this is NO PROOF what so ever has been shown that Rebecca somehow knew how to and did hack into another persons photo account somewhere and take whatever designs these are supposed to be, and yet there are people posting all over that she did this. I guess since "said collar maker" says its true well then it must be true. I could be wrong I am taking Rebecca at her word that this is not something she did and will continue to do so until proof is shown that she in fact hacked into a photo account.

Also...by posting the picture above of Ella you are violating Rebecca's copyright as indicated in the bottom left of her photo..unless you got her permission to post that picture which I doubt

For people reading this thread and thinking it is about what was originally posted about the Paco collar issue, the only reason that situation was brought up again was so when "said collar maker" decides to say Rebecca stole her designs then they will have established a "pattern"....and like I said the proof is in the pudding...post up some sort of proof the shows she hacked your account...but really this sort of thing should be handled between the two individuals in a professional manner and not in the court of public opinion.

if I am wrong about any of this well then I stand corrected but I wanted a few of the "facts" as it were out there since Rebecca will not address this issue on public forums any longer.
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Postby iluvk9 » January 28th, 2011, 9:20 pm

As one of the many confused people who read this thread, thank you for clarifying from your point of view.
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