Wailing, Warbling, Screaming Pigeon

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 3:03 pm

My Ears Hurt Just Thinking About the Sounds she Makes When she's in the crate and Dar is Out Playing.

I have never IN MY LIFE heard a dog Shriek and Wail in VERBRATTO...
She is Opera-in-Despair.
The sound is intense and makes my left ear Bleed.
(Probably the Right Ear Too, but after the Left Ear starts Bleeding, Whos' Keeping Track? :| )

Can I throw things at her while she's crated and wailing?
Cussing does not seem to stop her, as neither does praying or blankets thrown over .

((remember, very small house. I can't move that huge-ass crate into a smaller room even if I wanted to)

I have even resorted to a very mean act of squirting her with water a time or two while she's SCREAMING... :oops:
(forgive me Dog-Father-in-Heaven)

But even that doesn't seem to deter her; and even if it did, I can't stand in one place and still play with Dar.

Some of this will be solved once warm weather comes, but certainly not all of it.

Any suggestion???
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby Malli » January 17th, 2011, 4:19 pm

The squirt bottle is a good option. If you use it consistently, you won't need to stand in one place.

I'd also work on a "quiet" command - I've started working on one with Oscar, because we have a few neighborhood nemises dogs - and if he sees them walk by from a window he loses his ever loving mind barking in the house :rolleyes2: . I started teaching it with the clicker. There are a few experienced clicker trainers on here.

You could also try giving her something to chew on (though I remember there is some question about food allergies). You might be able to do something frozen with the same protein and ingredients she gets in her food.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby Malli » January 17th, 2011, 4:22 pm

should add, she is screaming because somewhere, somehow, she learned that screaming and carrying on works, so whatever you do, don't let her out when she acts like this.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 4:27 pm

THANK YOU!!
I MEANT to include :: when she's in this hysterical mood, NO kind of food will redirect her. Not frozen Kongs or anything.

I"ve tried giving her 'treats' the second she's quiet, but that's a catch22, because I can't stand there and reward her while I play with Dar, and if I'm standing there rewarding HER, that means play has stopped (stimulus that freaks her out).
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby SisMorphine » January 17th, 2011, 5:27 pm

Don't ask me. My dogs are crate screamers and I just roll with it. LOL!
"All changes, even the most longed for, have their melancholy; for what we leave behind us is a part of ourselves; we must die to one life before we can enter another." -Anatole France
SisMorphine
They're like service dogs gone wrong.
 
Posts: 9231

Postby amazincc » January 17th, 2011, 5:54 pm

IMO, it's a LOT to ask of her when she can hear/watch you play w/Dar, right in front of her nose.

Is she that vocal when they're both crated, or just when you interact w/Dar?
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby plebayo » January 17th, 2011, 6:05 pm

I think she's going to scream regardless. My dogs only do well separated when something fun is going on if they are out of earshot of each other.

You could try being sneaky and let them both out, then call Pigeon in, hangout with her for a little bit, put her in her kennel with a snack, then go outside and play with Dar, but if she can hear you guys she'll probably cry anyway.

I've found when trying to walk my dogs individually I have to trick them like this, let them both out, bring one inside, hangout for a few minutes and then nonchalantly leave. Usually they know what has happened, but they freak out a lot less because they haven't seen me leave with the other dog. The reaction is much more dramatic if I leave with one dog, and the other one sees me leaving. Maybe if you brought her back in, you could get her interested in a snack while she's relaxed, she'd focus on the snack then you could go outside and play with Dar.

Other than that unless they are out of earshot of each other I think she's going to scream. She knows the stuff going on outside is fun.
Suzanne
Seth, CGC & LiLo
♥♥Sofie - Always in my heart. ♥♥
User avatar
plebayo
Mrs. Dr. Kildare
 
Posts: 941
Location: Oregon

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 6:10 pm

amazincc wrote:IMO, it's a LOT to ask of her when she can hear/watch you play w/Dar, right in front of her nose.

Is she that vocal when they're both crated, or just when you interact w/Dar?


Just when he plays.
SHE FREAKS out.... :(

othewise, she pretty much WHINES every single second....
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby amazincc » January 17th, 2011, 6:18 pm

ArtGypsy wrote:
amazincc wrote:IMO, it's a LOT to ask of her when she can hear/watch you play w/Dar, right in front of her nose.

Is she that vocal when they're both crated, or just when you interact w/Dar?


Just when he plays.
SHE FREAKS out.... :(

othewise, she pretty much WHINES every single second....


Hmmm... the constant whining (just *because*...) would annoy the crap out of me.

The "freaking out" I completely understand, especially when fun things happen right in front of her.

I don't have a real solution for you... at my house I'm able to shut the door to the spare/crate room, and unless it has been quiet for at least ten minutes I don't interact w/the offending party - at ALL. lol
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby FAB dogs » January 17th, 2011, 6:27 pm

I took Fenway to class with Brogan last week. The trainer offered to evaluate him for me after class. I brought him in and put him in a crate and he screamed blue murder. Trieda stuffed kong with no luck. For a while the trainer would throw treats into the crate, from about 10 feet away, whenever he'd pause to take a breath. Worked great but the trainer couldn't stand there all night long so we ended up putting him in the crate in my car until class was over.

Point being, maybe if you could throw food from a distance it wouldn't seem to her like you're right there paying attention? Second point being, at least during the cooler months, could you put her in a crate in your car? Not a great solution but might give you a break for the short term.

Also, are they allowed to interact at other times or are you on a crate/rotate basis? If it's just for some one on one time with Dar, could you do the one on one outside of the house? I take my two dogs to the park every day and leave Fenway at home in a crate. Then I crate my two and take Fenway to the park, or to the shelter for some training. The rest of the time they're allowed to play together. So basically, Fenway doesn't see me giving my guys too much attention and subsequently doesn't freak out all that much in the crate.

Not much help, but food for thought.
Tina
Avery - Southpawz Elf Queen, CGC- Siberian Psycho Terrier
Brogan - Southpawz Mystery Man, CGC - Ephelis Spaniel
Fenway - Southpawz 4 Yawkey Way -Bull Collie
And the crazy cats
User avatar
FAB dogs
Just Whelped
 
Posts: 70

Postby airwalk » January 17th, 2011, 6:57 pm

Grace I think the advised about he whistling and warbling is spot on. She has learned this gets her what she wants...so ignore it (buy earplugs) no getting out of the crate if you are screaming at me.

Unfortunately I agree with the others about when there is play right in front of her. That's asking a lot. Could she be in a different room (even a bathroom) just during play time so she can't see what is going on?
User avatar
airwalk
I live here
 
Posts: 3791
Location: Oregon

Postby TheRedQueen » January 17th, 2011, 7:20 pm

A squirt bottle is used as an aversive...a punisher. The problem with a punisher is that it HAS to be considered aversive by the targeted individual. If a dog likes or doesn't mind be squirted with water, it's not going to be an effective aversive. The other side of the coin with an aversive, is that you can condition the dog to have a HORRIBLE connection between other things that you don't mean to do: make her hate the crate, make her hate the crate while Dar is playing, make her hate being near water, etc. There are unintended consequences when using aversives/punishers...even though they might seem mild to you now. (ask me sometime about the Vanilla Aversive)

And the problem with adding a punisher to this sort of behavior is, as others mentioned, it's an attention-getting behavior. So now you're adding attention...even though you view it as negative attention, she's obviously not viewing it that way. Ignoring isn't really the way to go either, because it's hard to do when she's at top volume.

But these aren't the only options. Karen Pryor has a nice list of 8 ways of getting rid of unwanted behavior (not just for dogs but for any creature: kids, husbands, dogs, cats, etc). Not every method is going to be the best for every behavior.

Anything you do to get rid of behavior you don't want will fall into one of the following
eight methods. The first four are the 'bad fairies,' the methods that have neither
kindness nor special efficacy to recommend them. The second four are the 'good
fairies,' the approaches that involve positive reinforcement and some understanding of
behavior, and that are highly likely to work. This material, specially adapted for the show
dog owner, is based on Chapter 4 of Don't Shoot the Dog! By Karen Pryor.

Method 1. Shoot the animal.
This definitely works. Get rid of the animal, by whatever means, and you will never have
to deal with that particular behavior from that particular subject again. Method One is a
common solution, in the dog show world, to a dog that "won't show." Give the dog away
and buy a new and more expensive dog.

Method 2. Punishment.
Everybody's favorite, in spite of the fact that it almost never really works. In the show
ring leash jerks are the commonest punishment (euphemistically called 'corrections') but
I have also seen dogs stepped on, yanked off their feet, kneed in the ribs, and earpinched
for not paying attention, for failure to obey a command, and for misbehavior
such as growling at the handler. Punishment does not improve a show dog's attitude.

Method 3. Negative reinforcement.
This does not mean doing something negative to the dog when it makes a mistake: it
means removing something negative when the dog does something right. For example,
during gaiting and stacking in the show ring many handlers hold the leash high over the
dog's head, dragging the dog upward. An appropriate use of negative reinforcement
would be to slacken the leash whenever the dog holds its head high voluntarily.

Method 4. Extinction.
Letting the behavior go away by itself. For example, playfulness in a puppy, and
overexcitement in any dog making its first trip into the show ring, will go away with or
without training, as the dog matures and becomes accustomed to the show
environment. Clicking for calmness, or clicker training specific behaviors such as
focusing on a target, can speed the process of desensitization and help extinguish
overreactions.

Method 5. Train an incompatible behavior.
The dog sniffs the ground all the time in the ring? Click it for keeping its nose in the air
for two steps, then three, then five, then a ring length, then longer and longer times. The
dog is being paid to keep its head up; it cannot do that, and sniff the ground at the same
time. Eventually just putting on a show collar and lead can become a cue for "Keep your
nose off the ground." Training an incompatible behavior-and paying for it, with the treats
one is allowed to carry in the show ring-is much more effective than punishing the sniff
(which encourages the dog to try to sneak in sniffs when you're not looking) or than the
physical intervention of hauling the dog's head into the air by leash, which will give you
a sore arm by the end of the day.

Method 6: Put the behavior on cue. (Then you almost never give the cue.) This is an
elegant way of getting rid of unwanted behavior, but so counterintuitive most people just
can't bring themselves to try it. Click the behavior; get the dog offering it for the click.
Add a cue. Reinforce the behavior when you have cued it, ignore it when you haven't.
The behavior will disappear except when cued. This is one way to get rid of puppyish
appeasement behaviors such as frantic face-licking; pawing and begging; jumping up;
intrusive sniffing; barking and whining; scratching at doors; and (trust me) submissive
urination. These are all innate puppy-to-adult-dog behaviors that we often intensify both
by getting angry and by inadvertent reinforcement.

Method 7. Shape the Absence of the behavior.
Reinforce everything that is not the undesired behavior. This method is particularly
appropriate with fearful or aggressive dogs. If the dog does anything normal, click. And
treat. Keep the sessions short, keep the reinforcements coming thick and strong, once
every ten seconds at least, and repeat as desired.

Method 8. Change the motivation.
Example: the dog in the yard that barks all night, disturbing the neighbors. This is a
lonely and frightened dog. Let the dog sleep in the house. Problem solved. Too often,
however, modern dog owners try to solve behavior problems by analyzing or explaining
why the dog is misbehaving. With the exception of genetically induced behavioral
anomalies (which are hard to diagnose and pin down) it is rarely productive to ask why
a dog does what it does. Identify the behavior (not the cause of the behavior). Then
identify something you can reinforce that will replace that behavior-and the stuff you
don't want will go away by itself.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 7:35 pm

airwalk wrote:Grace I think the advised about he whistling and warbling is spot on. She has learned this gets her what she wants...so ignore it (buy earplugs) no getting out of the crate if you are screaming at me.

Unfortunately I agree with the others about when there is play right in front of her. That's asking a lot. Could she be in a different room (even a bathroom) just during play time so she can't see what is going on?


Well, I feel bad we're playing in front of her :( but I DO play with her Before/After, just so she doesn't feel as bad , LOL>..

Dar whines and yodels once in a while, TOO, but he will 'HUSH' when I tell him.....

Maybe in time she will 'HUsh" for me too...once she understands what I want .

And to be honest, this Horrible Noise is one of those things that bother me mostly because it bothers my family.
If I lived Alone, I really wouldnt' be that bothered by it.

So once Nice Weather comes, this really won't be much of an issue. :wink:

And another thing...........it's the 'oddness' of the sound I find so interesting.... :neener:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby amazincc » January 17th, 2011, 8:56 pm

Come for a visit... bring the hounds.
I can ignore a yodeler with the best of them. :wave2: :D
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 9:36 pm

[quote="amazincc"]Come for a visit... bring the hounds.
I can ignore a yodeler with the best of them. :wave2: :D[/quot
:dogRun: :dogRun: :dogRun: THIS IS US, TRYING TO GET DOWN THERE ! :dogRun: :dogRun: :dogRun:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 9:50 pm

[quote="TheRedQueen"]A squirt bottle is used as an aversive...a punisher. The problem with a punisher is that it HAS to be considered aversive by the targeted individual. If a dog likes or doesn't mind be squirted with water, it's not going to be an effective aversive. The other side of the coin with an aversive, is that you can condition the dog to have a HORRIBLE connection between other things that you don't mean to do: make her hate the crate, make her hate the crate while Dar is playing, make her hate being near water, etc. There are unintended consequences when using aversives/punishers...even though they might seem mild to you now. (ask me sometime about the Vanilla Aversive)

WELL, I THOUGHT ABOUT THIS RIGHT AFTER I DID IT. I WAS IRRITATED AND FRUSTRATED, (MUCH LIKE A PARENT WHO SMACKS THEIR KIDDO ) AND ALSO FELT REALLY BAD ABOUT IT AT THE TIME[/b] :nono: :( :nono:

Thanks for all the great info Erin..... :wave2:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby airwalk » January 17th, 2011, 11:22 pm

Just a teeny reminder..she hasn't been with you very long. She is still learning what is and isn't acceptable in the new parameters of her life. She is going to try the things that have always worked for her...because that's what dogs do, use what works. When it ceases working (that's the extinguishing the behavior) you get to help her find something more appropriate that does work.

Patience grasshopper, patience :D
User avatar
airwalk
I live here
 
Posts: 3791
Location: Oregon

Postby ArtGypsy » January 17th, 2011, 11:30 pm

airwalk wrote:Just a teeny reminder..she hasn't been with you very long. She is still learning what is and isn't acceptable in the new parameters of her life. She is going to try the things that have always worked for her...because that's what dogs do, use what works. When it ceases working (that's the extinguishing the behavior) you get to help her find something more appropriate that does work.

Patience grasshopper, patience :D


:goodStuff:
YOU DON'T THINK I'M PATIENT?? :dance: :neener:
:anyMinute: :anyMinute: :anyMinute:
:high5:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
User avatar
ArtGypsy
First I Caught Her, Then I Didn't Share My Fries
 
Posts: 946
Location: Eastern Nebraska

Postby airwalk » January 17th, 2011, 11:45 pm

Yep just about as patient as I am when something needs fixed and what I'm doing isn't work..... :wink:
User avatar
airwalk
I live here
 
Posts: 3791
Location: Oregon

Postby TheRedQueen » January 18th, 2011, 12:17 am

ArtGypsy wrote:
airwalk wrote:Just a teeny reminder..she hasn't been with you very long. She is still learning what is and isn't acceptable in the new parameters of her life. She is going to try the things that have always worked for her...because that's what dogs do, use what works. When it ceases working (that's the extinguishing the behavior) you get to help her find something more appropriate that does work.

Patience grasshopper, patience :D


:goodStuff:
YOU DON'T THINK I'M PATIENT?? :dance: :neener:
:anyMinute: :anyMinute: :anyMinute:
:high5:


Just remember...extinguishing behavior by extinction is one of the "bad fairies" and isn't usually recommended for barking...at least by me. ;) many, many, many dogs find barking FUN...and it's self-rewarding. So just ignoring it doesn't often work...because barking is easy to do, maybe it makes the dog feel better, etc.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Next

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron