DEBATE: Speutering creating dogs with worse temperaments?

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 2nd, 2011, 5:09 am

Wasn't sure which section to put this one in, so here it is!

Does the push for spaying/neutering of all family pets greatly reduce the gene pool of friendly, well-tempered dogs? Because of this, fewer friendly family pets are being bred and it's up to the BYB's breeding for looks and the few and far between reputable breeders to create puppies. Discuss.
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Postby TheRedQueen » January 2nd, 2011, 9:27 am

No, because I see a lot of family pets...and trust me, many of them need the needle, not just a surgery.

That's my grumpy bitter take on that this morning.
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Postby airwalk » January 2nd, 2011, 1:20 pm

Actually I'm a tad confused by the question. Is the question that since regular suburban families are spaying and neutering there has been a reduction in at large, oopsie litters that may or may not produce friendly dogs....because, in my view, the quality breeders are exactly the location that quality, temperamentally sound dogs come from...everything else is pretty much BYB.

Some BYB are for money, some are for the "miracle of birth", some are for the "every female needs to have at least one litter - myth", some are simply oopsie...my or my neighbors dog got out and crap...we have puppies.

So I guess I'm a bit unsure of exactly what the question is?
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Postby CinderDee » January 2nd, 2011, 1:37 pm

This is the way I understood the question but I could be wrong although it's basically what you said, Diana.

I believe she is saying that since the push for spay/neuter of family pets the majority of dogs will be coming from byb's that only care about money and looks & not about temperament. Before the spay/neuter craze you had more "family people" breeding because their dog was sooo nice, or the 'miracle of birth', etc. I know that we think they are also byb's but they are more likely to breed family pets that usually have decent temperaments.

Many families wouldn't even think of going to a reputable breeder and many couldn't afford one of their dogs. They might only have the option of getting a dog from the 'local breeder' they found in their newspaper who doesn't care about temperament at all.
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Postby BigDogBuford » January 2nd, 2011, 1:56 pm

Family oopsie breeders and BYB's are the same in my book.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » January 2nd, 2011, 2:43 pm

Dee had my intent right - I understand that family oopsie's, miracle of life etc are all BYB's. However, for the sake of argument, I'm differentiating between "my dog is a cool color and has a big head so I'll breed him so I can sell the cool color/big headed puppies for a lot of money" and "my dog is super sweet so I'll find another super sweet dog and breed them for more super sweet dogs."
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Postby airwalk » January 2nd, 2011, 3:34 pm

My take is even with this distinction the end result is the same. The Oh my dog is sooo sweet and cute and smart so I'll breed it...ends up with a litter of puppies that may or may not bee so sweet, cute and smart...because they haven't a clue how to make them all of those things...and they still sell those puppies for $$$.

The standard BYB that breeds for greed by basing on color, size, etc....are no more or less likely to end up with a half a litter of good pups...those breed aggressive temperament to aggressive...well they are as likely as not to end up with about half of exactly what they wanted.

I have trouble drawing any distinction between the two.

I realize that folks can't "afford" to go to breeders....but sorry, I'm a bit cynical today looking at my foster puppy....as long as people want dogs and there is a demand for supply then the supply will adjust to meet the demand. If people can't or won't afford certain costs, the breeders will reduce their costs.

I hear the comments that if we aren't careful there won't be any more puppies and we'll spay/neuter dogs out of existence....personally my response is fat damn chance.
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Postby amazincc » January 2nd, 2011, 4:04 pm

Both Fausts parents were over-the-top-DA/HA... they had to be euthanized because they simply could not be handled safely. I, personally, think that it was caused by their owners/environment... man-made.
I had some misgiving when I brought Faust home, and as a puppy he was a bossy little shyte... but he has turned into one of THE most even tempered dogs I ever had the pleasure of living with.
Nothing, and I mean NOTHING, fazes him. He is not skittish when put into new situations, he gets along w/everyone, he is extremely good natured, he is up for just about anything you ask of him - but would I want to breed him? No. He comes w/a set of health problems that would most likely affect at least half of the puppies in a litter sired by him.
I am glad I got him neutered.
Same goes for Sepp. He inherited some of his Dads healths problems, and I wouldn't wish those on any potential puppies and their owners.
Micks Mom was one of the friendliest and most even tempered dogs I have ever met... and Mick was one of THE most fear-aggressive and "dangerous" dogs I've ever been owned by. At four months old he wanted to take your face off if he didn't know you.

"Breeding for good temperament" is a crap shoot, IMO. :|

Dogs will never become extinct... as long as there is no shortage of irresponsible idiots, there will be no shortage of puppies. :nono: :cry:
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Postby BullyLady » January 2nd, 2011, 4:05 pm

BigDogBuford wrote:Family oopsie breeders and BYB's are the same in my book.


This is a gray area for me, but I tend to agree with you. There is SO MUCH information out there, there's just no reason for oopsie litters to even be a thing anymore.
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Postby BullyLady » January 2nd, 2011, 4:25 pm

And to throw in on the subject at hand....

I think temperament is a crap shoot, however it seem like (overall) there are more workable "nice" dogs than truly fundamentally mean ones. So even if most of the population of dogs comes from BYBs (which actually, don't they?) there will still be many many dogs with excellent temperaments.
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Postby plebayo » January 2nd, 2011, 4:58 pm

amazincc wrote:
"Breeding for good temperament" is a crap shoot, IMO. :|



This. Even if you breed two even tempered dogs to each other you can end up with puppies that have crappy personalities.

I think the "bad dog" problem, is people breeding dogs and not culling puppies that they see right away have bad personalities. A shelter a while back around here had a litter of corgi mix puppies. My friend's brother adopted one, at 13 weeks of age the puppy was trying to bite him, his wife, and their child - unprovoked. And we're not talking playful biting or him just testing the waters, he was serious. It just so happens one of his litter mates comes into the clinic. She is fine to be handled by her owner but is a total land shark if anyone touches her. I'm pretty sure the entire litter ended up like this. I'm not saying that a puppy can't be bossy, or that every dog with a 'tude should be put down, but it is the breeders responsible, BYB or not to recognize the signs of serious aggression and take that dog out of the gene pool.
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Postby mnp13 » January 3rd, 2011, 9:51 am

amazincc wrote:"Breeding for good temperament" is a crap shoot, IMO.


I'll steal a quote from a breeder I know; "If you think breeding is a crap shoot, you need to shoot the crap you breed."

Thing is, you can not judge the likely temperament of the offspring based on the parents. You need to factor in at least the grandparents and the littermates of the parents. Ideally, you'd compare temperaments of other litters by the parents as well (identical breeding or not.) That is the only way you can predict what you're going to get. If you don't know anything about the grandparents (at the very minimum), you're right, it's all a crap shoot.

Perfect example: all the people breeding "designer" dogs. F1 - half of each breed, puppies often resemble one parent more than the other but are often consistent. F2 - even if you breed two F1's and you have half the genetics of the each breed, you start getting puppies that are more one breed than the other. F3 - things are all over the place. That's why people truly creating a new breed cull so many of them there is no way to get consistent outcome when you are early in the mixes.
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