DEBATE: Dog Aggression

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby dlynne1123 » November 27th, 2010, 10:17 am

TheRedQueen wrote:I do see what you're saying, Michelle...I really do. My problem with this type of thing, is that working with rescues and breed dogs...I just see so many horrendous temperaments and aggression issues (DA and HA)...and I just don't see "family pets" much anymore. My own personal theory is that the lack of easy-going dogs at shelters and at breeders is why people are turning to these lazy, idiotic doodles so much nowadays...because doodle breeders breed for temperament above all else (with no regard for health, structure, etc).

I don't think breeding for temperament only is the way to go either, but honestly...so many people want easy-going dogs that can take what life throws at them...that I think breeders (and rescues) need to be aware of what they're doing. We live closer together, we live in high-stress environments, and we subject our dogs to sooooo many things nowadays. Gone are the days where dogs could get away with being dogs...bites are taken seriously now, instead of "what were you doing to annoy the dog?" Dogs don't get to run around and be dogs as much anymore...even dog parks are crowded and stressful now. We subject our dogs to a lot of shit...and I think that all breeders, of EVERY breed need to keep that in mind.



'These' dogs aren't the result of good breeding they are the result of back yard/poor breeders that didn't care about the breed, only the dollar sign. These are teh dogs that end up in the papers, hand, isn't and never was part of the breed, how did it get there? BAD breeding, poor choosing, no quality. I deal with rescues everyday, they'd rather have a HA dog that a DA dog, b/c they can give it excuses like it was abused or something (when we all know it wasn't socialized properly.) Probably not abused at all.

Sigh, what if Da is linked to a better human bond? We could lose that? What if DA is linked to drive? I want don't fluffy jrts! I want rat chasers, give them a new job to do! Its our job to give them new jobs, not change them.

And for the doodle people! We have a big time breeder here, where mutts are sold for 2000 dollars! And theyre beginning to be returned for bad temperaments and poor health. they won't admit to it until it happens more often, but i"m seeing a link to neurotic mothers and aggressive puppies This breeder wants a look, not a temperament. A distinct size, not an activity or job. Therefore she gets unpredictably acting puppies. Shes 4 generations in and now finding Addisons and thyroid in a high percentage. Breeding whoops! Its not like she went to school for genetics or anything, she just found a niche of people that wanted 25 lb labradoodles for any price. And I might add, her program did not start from any good quality poodles or labs, those breeders wouldn't associate with her, she found pet store pups as her foundation.
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby TheRedQueen » November 27th, 2010, 10:23 am

dlynne1123 wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:I do see what you're saying, Michelle...I really do. My problem with this type of thing, is that working with rescues and breed dogs...I just see so many horrendous temperaments and aggression issues (DA and HA)...and I just don't see "family pets" much anymore. My own personal theory is that the lack of easy-going dogs at shelters and at breeders is why people are turning to these lazy, idiotic doodles so much nowadays...because doodle breeders breed for temperament above all else (with no regard for health, structure, etc).

I don't think breeding for temperament only is the way to go either, but honestly...so many people want easy-going dogs that can take what life throws at them...that I think breeders (and rescues) need to be aware of what they're doing. We live closer together, we live in high-stress environments, and we subject our dogs to sooooo many things nowadays. Gone are the days where dogs could get away with being dogs...bites are taken seriously now, instead of "what were you doing to annoy the dog?" Dogs don't get to run around and be dogs as much anymore...even dog parks are crowded and stressful now. We subject our dogs to a lot of shit...and I think that all breeders, of EVERY breed need to keep that in mind.



'These' dogs aren't the result of good breeding they are the result of back yard/poor breeders that didn't care about the breed, only the dollar sign. These are teh dogs that end up in the papers, hand, isn't and never was part of the breed, how did it get there? BAD breeding, poor choosing, no quality. I deal with rescues everyday, they'd rather have a HA dog that a DA dog, b/c they can give it excuses like it was abused or something (when we all know it wasn't socialized properly.) Probably not abused at all.

Sigh, what if Da is linked to a better human bond? We could lose that? What if DA is linked to drive? I want don't fluffy jrts! I want rat chasers, give them a new job to do! Its our job to give them new jobs, not change them.

And for the doodle people! We have a big time breeder here, where mutts are sold for 2000 dollars! And theyre beginning to be returned for bad temperaments and poor health. they won't admit to it until it happens more often, but i"m seeing a link to neurotic mothers and aggressive puppies This breeder wants a look, not a temperament. A distinct size, not an activity or job. Therefore she gets unpredictably acting puppies. Shes 4 generations in and now finding Addisons and thyroid in a high percentage. Breeding whoops! Its not like she went to school for genetics or anything, she just found a niche of people that wanted 25 lb labradoodles for any price. And I might add, her program did not start from any good quality poodles or labs, those breeders wouldn't associate with her, she found pet store pups as her foundation.


You do realize that I don't *LIKE* doodles, right? ;) I'm not arguing *FOR* doodles and designer mixes. My own super-fast dog in flyball is not a sport mix that so many competitors get nowadays, but a random brown mix.

But you have to admit that there are TONS of people buying them...and I do think that it has something to do with the easy-going, general dopey-ness of the dogs you see...and I think that appeals to people that want a family dog. And trust me, I see a lot of them with horrendous temperaments...and health problems out the wazoo...but many are dopey and sweet, so people buy more. I see more and more doodles and designer mixes out and about...(I have one boarding this week with me...a westie-poo).
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby dlynne1123 » November 27th, 2010, 10:32 am

I am just hoping that they become the next over bred over bought, misunderstood breed. And they can leave the bullies, and rotties and 'real' dogs alone. They want stuffed animals, not dogs. I see most of ournew pups are hybrids, and I'd rather them get these than a breed they can't handle.

I love to hunt, doesn't mean I am going to go get a Weimaraner, I understand this dog is too much for me. I did my research and found a dog that met my activity level, desire to work, and desire to cuddle at the end of the day. Short hair, medium build body, and can still go everywhere with me b/c I trained them. Even if the crfates come too. If my next goal is to make service dog I know where I am going to get my next puppy, and what I am lookin for.

Just like with todays kids, people want an easy out, and I am going to fight it kicking and screaming. You need to control your kids and your animals. You are a guardian, not just an owner. They are still animals, not toys, and should be treated with that respect. I beleive everyone on this board knows this, its educating owners out there, consumers. I do every day at teh vets office, I only wish they asked before they got that puppy, not after. B/c then I get them in my problem dog class weeks later, it was a bad match, simply put, and the pet store didnt care they were getting the wrong breed of dog. They were getting an impulsive paycheck.
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby mnp13 » November 27th, 2010, 1:03 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I do see what you're saying, Michelle...I really do. My problem with this type of thing, is that working with rescues and breed dogs...I just see so many horrendous temperaments and aggression issues (DA and HA)...and I just don't see "family pets" much anymore. My own personal theory is that the lack of easy-going dogs at shelters and at breeders is why people are turning to these lazy, idiotic doodles so much nowadays...because doodle breeders breed for temperament above all else (with no regard for health, structure, etc).


Well, the "easy" dogs are the ones likely staying in their homes :|

and I agree with the rest. :)
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby TheRedQueen » November 27th, 2010, 3:08 pm

mnp13 wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:I do see what you're saying, Michelle...I really do. My problem with this type of thing, is that working with rescues and breed dogs...I just see so many horrendous temperaments and aggression issues (DA and HA)...and I just don't see "family pets" much anymore. My own personal theory is that the lack of easy-going dogs at shelters and at breeders is why people are turning to these lazy, idiotic doodles so much nowadays...because doodle breeders breed for temperament above all else (with no regard for health, structure, etc).


Well, the "easy" dogs are the ones likely staying in their homes :|

and I agree with the rest. :)


Right...and to take this further off-topic...lol...this is why I don't fall into line with the whole no-kill idea. If the good dogs are in homes already, the rescues and shelters should take a harder look at what they have in their hands. If the dogs aren't adoptable by a normal family (one willing to put some time/energy/training into the dog) that just wants a pet...then that dog should be euth'd. I'm just getting tired of rescues trying to save EVERY dog. :neutral:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby call2arms » November 28th, 2010, 6:20 pm

Another point of view on the main subject of the thread... I absolutely agree with the act that if someone can't deal with dog aggressiveness, they can get a stuffed dog. No matter where it comes from, whether it's from fear or gameness, it's present in many breeds and individuals.

Gene pool or learned behavior, the difference between DA and herding/hunting/other typical breed-associated behaviors is that it rarely leads to the dog's demise, through the fighting itself or human actions/consequences. So my point is, is the issue behind the "should we remove dog aggressiveness" from the gene pool more of a problem since this "job" vs. herding or hunting is not, say, useful to us anymore?
Because really humans created this breed for that specific job, and it no longer exists. For the main public, that means that they end up with DA animals, and that is just outrageous. Mind you, the JRT's have an excuse for it- they were bred to kill vermin; the DA side is just something that comes with it, while the pit breeds were truly created for dog fighting - no "useful" perks to the un-pit bull friendly folk.

I don't know if this makes sense? Not that I agree with what I said above, but it's a point of view that seems to prevail amongst the general public, I think. People who don't *like* a dog who would happily kill theirs, don't see all the qualities or the APBT's, and have no use for such a menace (even though it's far from being all representatives of the breed). But it's ok if their doodle wants to eat my face at work, he's just so scared. :crazy2:

edited cause I can't spell... :oops:
“Your birth is a mistake you'll spend your whole life trying to correct.” Chuck Palahniuk


I love pus but I hate people.

I can say words like undifferentiated gonads now!
User avatar
call2arms
Boys Stink
 
Posts: 2349
Location: sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere...

Postby TheRedQueen » November 28th, 2010, 8:55 pm

call2arms wrote:Another point of view on the main subject of the thread... I absolutely agree with the act that if someone can't deal with dog aggressiveness, they can get a stuffed dog. No matter where it comes from, whether it's from fear or gameness, it's present in many breeds and individuals.


Hey now...I can't do DA dogs...and I don't have stuffed dogs. ;)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby mnp13 » November 28th, 2010, 9:02 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:Hey now...I can't do DA dogs...and I don't have stuffed dogs. ;)


You "can't do" dog aggressive dogs, or you would dump a dog because it is dog aggressive? :wink: Totally different. I think you'd deal with it as necessary.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby call2arms » November 29th, 2010, 12:08 am

Erin, by that sentence, I meant that any breed can be DA, and that id a dog owner isn't ready to deal, or get the resources to deal with that, that they should get a stuffed animal.
Clearly you're not one of those people who would end up with a DA dog on your hands and get it euthanized or dump it at the shelter, just cause you DON'T want to deal with it.
“Your birth is a mistake you'll spend your whole life trying to correct.” Chuck Palahniuk


I love pus but I hate people.

I can say words like undifferentiated gonads now!
User avatar
call2arms
Boys Stink
 
Posts: 2349
Location: sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere...

Postby TheRedQueen » November 29th, 2010, 12:15 am

mnp13 wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:Hey now...I can't do DA dogs...and I don't have stuffed dogs. ;)


You "can't do" dog aggressive dogs, or you would dump a dog because it is dog aggressive? :wink: Totally different. I think you'd deal with it as necessary.


I'd find a new home for a DA dog...and it wouldn't stay long at my house...;) Would I euth the dog? Depends...

Erin, by that sentence, I meant that any breed can be DA, and that id a dog owner isn't ready to deal, or get the resources to deal with that, that they should get a stuffed animal.
Clearly you're not one of those people who would end up with a DA dog on your hands and get it euthanized or dump it at the shelter, just cause you DON'T want to deal with it.


I know...I'm just being a brat. :neener:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby call2arms » November 29th, 2010, 12:22 am

Well, this is a serious discussion.







:dance:
“Your birth is a mistake you'll spend your whole life trying to correct.” Chuck Palahniuk


I love pus but I hate people.

I can say words like undifferentiated gonads now!
User avatar
call2arms
Boys Stink
 
Posts: 2349
Location: sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere...

Postby TheRedQueen » November 29th, 2010, 12:28 am

:wave2:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby fenella » November 30th, 2010, 1:25 am

Interesting topic. I understand not wanting to reduce the things we love about pit bulls (athleticism, people affection, etc.) while trying to reduce DA. I also see that people are concerned that reducing DA may reduce some other drivey parts of a temperament. But I also have to wonder what would be wrong with breeding out DA (or at least considering it when selecting a breeding pair), as there are certainly drivey dogs that are not DA, and nice, athletic, game pits that are not DA. I don't know how you can't consider it.
As for DA being a defining characteristic, are we saying that when the "job" that the dog was bred to do is no longer needed, we should no longer have that breed? Not really part of the original question, but an offshoot. On the topic, is being DA really a defining characteristic of the bully breeds?
User avatar
fenella
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 286
Location: Maryland

Postby furever_pit » November 30th, 2010, 1:38 pm

Do y'all think that the "game" qualities that have been brought out in this breed through the years of breeding for success in the pit lends itself to other jobs?

What about hunting? I know DA dogs that are clear headed enough not to touch another dog while on the hunt because they are going after the hog. They will catch and hold that hog despite injury. Is that not unlike what they did in the pit? Would these dogs be such good large game hunting dogs if they were of a different origin?

Does the willingness to persevere despite great obstacle or possibility of injury present itself in protection work? What about other sports?

I am tempted to think that "game" qualities in these dogs do make them better working dogs. Even though I think it is silly to call dogs nowadays "game" or "gamebred" because it is illegal to test those qualities (and there is only one way to know if a dog is "game"). That's like saying a dog is bred for Schutzhund because its great great grandfather was a successful ScH dog, but no dogs since in the pedigree had even been trained for it.

I think we also need to remember that breeding 2 dogs together who are not DA does not guarantee that any one of the pups will not be DA. Genetics is more complicated than that. You will have throwbacks and the fact that these dogs have been so tightly linebred would increase those chances, I would think anyway.

And how does selecting for non-DA dogs affect the breeder's selection process? Say there are 6 pups, 3 are of mild drive and are not suitable for the breeder's sport of choice (whatever sport that is). 2 of those puppies are dog aggressive while one is not. Now, the other 3 pups are very high drive and look like good working prospects, let's say all 3 start to display some DA tendencies before the breeder makes their selection. So what does the breeder do? Do they sell/place all of the DA pups with other homes because they are trying to weed DA out of their line? If so, how does keeping a pup with only mild drive affect their line's success rate over the years? And doesn't the intention of creating a line of non-DA dogs originally put more DA dogs into the hands of the public than if the breeder were to decide to keep those 3 high drive pups with DA? After all, you cannot create a line of dogs without DA if you are the one keeping the DA dogs.
User avatar
furever_pit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1138
Location: NC

Postby mnp13 » November 30th, 2010, 2:19 pm

fenella wrote:Interesting topic. I understand not wanting to reduce the things we love about pit bulls (athleticism, people affection, etc.) while trying to reduce DA. I also see that people are concerned that reducing DA may reduce some other drivey parts of a temperament. But I also have to wonder what would be wrong with breeding out DA (or at least considering it when selecting a breeding pair), as there are certainly drivey dogs that are not DA, and nice, athletic, game pits that are not DA. I don't know how you can't consider it.

I don't consider it because I don't view DA as the horrible thing that many people do (not saying that you do.) Is it fun? No, but it's manageable most of the time.

As for using it as a selection point for breeding, there are so many other things that need to be taken into account. Look at Therese's breeding with Pepper and Patcheeno - the best match for her dog was on the other coast. That's not a casual "here's a boy dog, there's a girl dog" breeding, that's in depth research for the best match for your dog. To then select out from dog aggression, well, to me it just knocks the gene pool down to about nothing.

Of course, I don't believe that over-the-top dog aggressive dogs should be bred for any reason - regardless of breed.

As for DA being a defining characteristic, are we saying that when the "job" that the dog was bred to do is no longer needed, we should no longer have that breed? Not really part of the original question, but an offshoot. On the topic, is being DA really a defining characteristic of the bully breeds?

I don't think it's a "defining characteristic" so much as it's just part of the breed. A Pit Bull isn't "not a Pit Bull" if it's not dog aggressive. Any more than a herder isn't a herder if it doesn't want to work sheep. However, I would not breed a herder that doesn't have any herding instinct. I don't have the same opinion of breeding Pit Bulls, but I don't think of it as something to select against either.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby call2arms » November 30th, 2010, 11:46 pm

I think hanging onto a hog, or a bull as some dog ancestors used to do, is very different than putting all your will to kill an animal of your own species. They know the difference.
Two dogs fighting each other WANT to, it's not a prey/hunting thing at all. It's sort of like comparing ultimate fighters to a criminal being chased on foot by armed forces.
Now that was more of a fighting dog scheme, in the case of a single dog that wants to eat another one that's just walking by, the "victim dog" showing no hints of aggression/looking for trouble may be something else, but I'm not sure that's always prey drive either.
“Your birth is a mistake you'll spend your whole life trying to correct.” Chuck Palahniuk


I love pus but I hate people.

I can say words like undifferentiated gonads now!
User avatar
call2arms
Boys Stink
 
Posts: 2349
Location: sunshine, lollipops and rainbows everywhere...

Postby mnp13 » December 1st, 2010, 12:50 am

call2arms wrote:I think hanging onto a hog, or a bull as some dog ancestors used to do, is very different than putting all your will to kill an animal of your own species. They know the difference.
Two dogs fighting each other WANT to, it's not a prey/hunting thing at all. It's sort of like comparing ultimate fighters to a criminal being chased on foot by armed forces.

excellent point, and one of the reasons I hate the "it's all in the way you raise them" routine. You can do everything right and still end up with a dog that wants to kill every other dog on the planet.

Now that was more of a fighting dog scheme, in the case of a single dog that wants to eat another one that's just walking by, the "victim dog" showing no hints of aggression/looking for trouble may be something else, but I'm not sure that's always prey drive either.

There can be sooo many triggers for that kind of behavior. Riggs grabbed that JRT out of nowhere, she was walking away from him and I don't think she even looked at him. However, we had three or four JRT's in our class who spent all of their time barking at him and trying to start stuff. I think he saw a JRT in range and wanted to scare the hell out of her just because she was in range. He grabbed her coat, and didn't regrip, so he had no intent to harm or he would have.

This past summer when we were doing recalls at the DSO, a Rottie that was a "bit" full of herself (but fear based) got all up in his face and he ignored her. I was amazed. He looked at her and then practically shrugged and kept walking. He did the same "shrug" when Jill's dog Dawn snarked at him for stepping over her. He's very dog aggressive, but to dogs that are "in to it" not ones that just happen to be in his air space. He wanted to kill Inara, but when we eventually put her in a down she suddenly didn't exist to him and he literally walked over her as if she wasn't there.

Not all dogs are like that, I think it has a lot to do with the source of the aggression. The silent, happy aggression that he has wants a willing dog, not to bully other dogs.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby furever_pit » December 1st, 2010, 10:07 am

call2arms wrote:I think hanging onto a hog, or a bull as some dog ancestors used to do, is very different than putting all your will to kill an animal of your own species. They know the difference.
Two dogs fighting each other WANT to, it's not a prey/hunting thing at all. It's sort of like comparing ultimate fighters to a criminal being chased on foot by armed forces.
Now that was more of a fighting dog scheme, in the case of a single dog that wants to eat another one that's just walking by, the "victim dog" showing no hints of aggression/looking for trouble may be something else, but I'm not sure that's always prey drive either.


My comparison had a lot more to do with the dog continuing to do its job despite injury and physical tiring. In the pit they were looking for dogs that would keep in the fight no matter what happened. Dogs that would crawl across the scratch line to get back into the fight were lauded. Hog hunters are looking for dogs that will keep with the boar no matter what. Wild boars can be aggressive animals and the dogs can and do get hurt. But you don't want a dog that gets scratched and disengages....that puts everyone at risk. I'm not arguing that large game hunting is a substitute way to test for "gameness", I just think that a dog that has some of those traits is going to do better than a dog that doesn't. Some hunters would argue that the exercise itself starts out in prey drive (the chase) and ends in fight/defense drive (on the hog).

Riggs sounds like Dylan to me. Dylan only wants to go at it with other dogs that want to go at it. It's an attitude that he responds to, the way the dog carries itself.
User avatar
furever_pit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1138
Location: NC

Postby dlynne1123 » December 1st, 2010, 11:03 am

ON the Dogs Decoded show recently they showed how they had breed for the silver fox for many generations in Siberia. They also showed how they bred for tameness. They succeeded. They also showed how even out of the tamest of foxes, a wild one came so often. Its genetics in the fox, after however many generations they couldn't breed it out of a fox, I don't think they could completely breed it out of the bullies unless they started with a whole different gene pool.

You try to breed Jack Russels for pets but we always get 'flyers' that are as clients put them crazy dogs, but in my mind all i see is the 'real' Jack Russel. A dog bred to hunt, be hardy, and lots of tenacity. I see a real dog. They say its bad breeding, but its old genetics finding its way back in.

I can have a DA dog be a therapy dog, b/c when he was working, he saw right thru the other dogs. In day to day contact, he'd want to kill them. DA doesn't make them less of a dog. This same dog could do bite work, I'll admit, he wasn't very intimidating with his 'howl' civil display, but this sport wasn't his thing. HE could get along with a consistent pack, with supervision. Yes it is hard work!

But my brother has a setter, he hunts with her. Whens hes not hunting her shes a royal pain int he ass! She gets to work when shes not working, he takes her on outward bound adventures and shes the mascot for his kids. She WILL NOT sit on his couch and be happy all day. Shes a working dog, and I hope most people that get a setter realize this is the potential personality, and won't squash it but give it an outlet. People that get dogs that werent' meant to sit on a lap or warm your toes, better prepare for a dog that needs work. Regardless of breed. Goldens aren't set it and forget it, we see more and more crazy ones b/c people want the perfect family dog that doesn't need training. We are forgetting that these people need to be educated, not catered to. AGain, I think everyone on this board understands a dog is an animal, that can make decisions on its own, out of anxiety or distress. Its always needs work. It is our job to guide them in the right direction and keep them from failing, and getting into trouble.

We A.I. ed a dog this week, (not any breeding I would condone, it was at teh vets office) and they wouldn't breed on their own b/c she was too cranky with other dogs. I quote the words of the owner. My interpretation from her exibit in the lobby is she is DA. I am NOT talking about a bully either, a labrador of all things. Just imagine if we humans put the energy into educating people rather than controlling things (registration laws, BSL, SPAY NEUTER laws) I know some of these work, some don't, but education is the key, not manipulation.
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby dlynne1123 » December 1st, 2010, 11:13 am

call2arms wrote:I think hanging onto a hog, or a bull as some dog ancestors used to do, is very different than putting all your will to kill an animal of your own species. They know the difference.
Two dogs fighting each other WANT to, it's not a prey/hunting thing at all. It's sort of like comparing ultimate fighters to a criminal being chased on foot by armed forces.
Now that was more of a fighting dog scheme, in the case of a single dog that wants to eat another one that's just walking by, the "victim dog" showing no hints of aggression/looking for trouble may be something else, but I'm not sure that's always prey drive either.


Its not eat tho, these dogs spit them out as soon as they are done moving, and look for the next one. Its the fight. Not the kill. If they were huskies and hungry, its a different story. JRTs are the same thing. Old terrier races, killed, but didn't necessarily eat their prey. Its the motion that drives them to chase, not the hunger. ANd i've seen dogs, say, 'shit! this isn't for me, and run back to the truck!' Its not their game, they don't have the same thing. But, while holding on to the creature you can get close enough to kill the hog yourself, without getting bit by any dogs. I see this as a genetic pick. I appreciate it. After breaking up many fights without getting scathed, rescuin and owning bullies, you won't see me getting close enough to a couple shepherds going at it. They clack and close their eyes and don't pay any attention to whats in their mouths. Its frantic. Bullies are holding until the game is done. Most level headed ones that I've made the mistake of giving too much freedom, don't throw sucker punches behind them. They focus on one item and keep it. Until I broke it up. Its quiet, to the point, and not much warning. I just know now, that they could do it at anytime and I keep them away from each other.
Body language, tails are wagging the same as tug of war with the toy. Its their game! They were bred to do it, b/c they love to do it!

I am trying to design a hang pole in my pen to give Panser something to do, when I want to keep my fingers. She loves tug of war so much. Its not the toy, its the game involved with it. Shes not DA yet, but I don't set her up to fail.
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

PreviousNext

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot]

cron