Malli wrote:mnp13 wrote:Pit Bulls are not the same to train in protection sports as herders, the harder you fight them the harder they fight back - it's the fundamental nature of a combat breed. I can't count the number of times we choked Riggs off of things, or tried to correct him to out. It's an exercise in futility with a dog that truly isn't going to give up... or will eventually get fed up enough with the treatment to return the favor.
This is my other main concern.
amalie79 wrote:If you're dealing with a traditionally game dog, can you really trust it to reliably call off?
TheRedQueen wrote:Anyway...no matter the breed, if the dog won't stop/out/quit when told to do...needs more training, or the dog needs to find a new job. I have herding dogs, and I have herded with them...and they have to call off livestock when told to do so. I had a basset hound that was a great rabbit hunter...even though she only tried an official hunt once (placed 9th out of 30 field bred dogs)...she was trained to call off of wild game. I don't think it's a pit bull problem...but just an individual dog and handler problem. Michelle and Riggs come to mind...she stopped doing bitework because Riggs wouldn't out on command/cue (I hope I have that right, since I'm using you as an example, Michelle! )
Dogs that just-don't-quit no matter what is in front of them can be considered "game" for this discussion in my opinion.
amalie79 wrote:Dogs that just-don't-quit no matter what is in front of them can be considered "game" for this discussion in my opinion.
That's something Michelle said in the other thread about DA-- I think Erin also referred to is as tenacious and drivey. That's the definition I was going for-- an "everyday" sort of "gameness," not actual pit fighting gameness. Probably should have been more specific. It was really just a hypothetical, though. I'm sure there are dogs of every breed who can handle protection work and follow the handler's commands perfectly-- I also wasn't suggesting that pit bulls can't be obedience trained-- that would be ridiculous. I just thought it was interesting that gameness was defined as "just-don't-quit" in the other thread, and a lot of folks were adamant that it was a critical component to the breed, but in protections work, there needs to be some willingness to comply. I'm curious as to whether, if a working dog in an actual protection situation, not just play/practice competition, might find the event to be so intense that the gameness comes out and overrides the commands. I was really just throwing it out there as an outside person reading both these threads and seeing interesting correlations.
Eh. Like I said, I know it's individual to every dog and handler. And now I'll just shut up and listen/read-- I definitely don't know enough about any of this to talk further; just making some observations.
amalie79 wrote: I just thought it was interesting that gameness was defined as "just-don't-quit" in the other thread, and a lot of folks were adamant that it was a critical component to the breed, but in protections work, there needs to be some willingness to comply.
I'm curious as to whether, if a working dog in an actual protection situation, not just play/practice competition, might find the event to be so intense that the gameness comes out and overrides the commands.
I just meant that when the "just don't quit" part came out in the pit, it would seem to make sense that the handlers would use a command to call them off if they could and not risk getting in the middle of things, but rather they had to physically pull them apart, maybe because that drive was so strong... ??
And now I'll just shut up and listen/read-- I definitely don't know enough about any of this to talk further; just making some observations.
TheRedQueen wrote:Good points you made...if a pit bull is really game...how do you get it to break its hold on another dog...if you were in the ring, let's say. So same thing goes for bitework...how do you get the dog to break its hold...like Riggs for example?
mnp13 wrote:The "just don't quit" stuff is the part of "game" that a dog who is horribly injured and/or dieing is still willing to continue a fight. It is willing to "scratch." Dog fighting was between willing dogs, when a dog turned, the fight was done. (don't misunderstand that as me condoning it, I just know the history of it)
Perhaps, but in a real situation, who cares
I can't imagine the dog was called out during a fight. Someone knowing the command could interrupt a fight, etc. The dogs were straddled and pulled apart probably using a break stick if the dog wouldn't release, you wouldn't choke them off because you didn't want to ruin their stamina.
No reason to shut up.
amalie79 wrote:That's my point-- if the dogs had to be pried apart, then that drive to bite is so strong that the dog isn't interested in complying with its handler with just a word, just a command.
pitbullmamaliz wrote:amalie79 wrote:That's my point-- if the dogs had to be pried apart, then that drive to bite is so strong that the dog isn't interested in complying with its handler with just a word, just a command.
You've got to also keep in mind a couple things:
1. Fighting dogs probably weren't given much, if any, obedience training.
2. These dogs were literally fighting for their lives. If you were in a fight for your life and somebody said "stop!" - would you?
I understand what you're saying - what if the dogs doing bitework think they're fighting for their lives as well? I think that is avoided a lot by training in different drives - prey drive instead of defense drive (somebody correct me if I'm way off track!). And there is so much obedience interspersed with bitework that the dogs probably know to expect it, which can be a problem.
At the DSO a few of us go to (bitework/obedience competetion in Michigan), they have to be careful about how they tell people to out their dogs because some dogs will out if they associate a sound (such as a buzzer or beep) with it enough times. It becomes routine, and you end up with a dog that outs before the handler tells it to. Not good.
amalie79 wrote:That's my point-- if the dogs had to be pried apart, then that drive to bite is so strong that the dog isn't interested in complying with its handler with just a word, just a command.
Many police dogs do not have an out, and that is by design, because if the dog doesn't listen because of the adrenaline of the moment and the handler has to say "out" ten times it could be looked upon as the police not having control of their dogs. When it's time to out, the dog is choked off.
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