DEBATE: APBT's in Protection Sports

Weight pull, Protection, Agility, Flyball... you name it!

Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 24th, 2010, 12:23 pm

Should APBT's be used for protection sports such as Schutzhund, Personal Protection, French Ring, etc, or is it bad for their already flawed image to be seen doing bitework? DISCUSS!
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Postby Pit♥bull » November 24th, 2010, 2:30 pm

In my opinion it would be a good thing, as it will demonstrate adherence to very strict training.
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Postby Malli » November 24th, 2010, 3:06 pm

I think its acceptable with a responsible owner, since the impression I get is that at most trials you'll go to, its mostly other protection sports people... or maybe I'm wrong...
At the Sch. trial I attended when I mentioned involving Oscar I got a pretty decent reaction, nothing negative.

I think the training would need to be done differently. My understanding of training typical protection sport breeds is that you are looking for a different drive with Bull Breeds...
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 24th, 2010, 3:16 pm

How about when training clubs just use big open fields and people driving by just see a glimpse of a pit bull hanging off of a person? Isn't that just further showing them that our dogs just bite and "lock on"?
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Postby Malli » November 24th, 2010, 3:19 pm

I guess... maybe using Bull Brees for protection sport should be done with care and discretion?
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Postby Ino » November 24th, 2010, 4:06 pm

I don't see a problem if training is done responsibly, but I do not care for the "bootcamps" that train a dog for personal protection for a person then give it back. I think that the owner should be present and taking part in the training so they know what to do and how to handle their dog. I guess you have a point though, training is probaby best done in a more or less private area- so people do not become alarmed and get crazy ideas in their head about what is going on. I would not do bite work with Ino especially because he is a fearful dog (very afraid of anything/anyone new), so I think that plays a big part in it too- the dogs temperment.
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Postby furever_pit » November 24th, 2010, 8:19 pm

Doesn't matter what breed you are working with, people who have no idea what they are seeing and who like to jump to their own conclusions are going to be alarmed. People even get concerned simply because they see a decoy or helper striking a dog with a stick or baton, or maybe they hear the gun. But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to train my dogs as I see fit. And it doesn't mean that I should have to go hide in some private field somewhere.

One of the last working weekends that I was at there were some Animal Control officers who stopped by to check out what we were doing (out of curiosity, not cause anyone called them). They got to see some decoys really take it to some dogs and they got to see a 3 or 4 year old imported dog learn some respect for his handler when commanded to out. We asked them at the end of the weekend if they saw anything that concerned them. The overwhelming answer was: no, absolutely not.

Edited cause I can't type. Sorry.
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Postby mnp13 » November 25th, 2010, 12:05 am

furever_pit wrote:But that doesn't mean I don't have the right to train my dogs as I see fit. And it doesn't mean that I should have to go hide in some private field somewhere.

I agree

We had the cops called on us in Maryland, two cars and three officers showed up to the "dog fighting" call. Only one dog and one decoy, we weren't sure what dogs were "fighting."

The control necessary for responsible protection training is far beyond most obedience work. I have to agree that just because the public is dumb doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to train their dogs for protection.
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Postby plebayo » November 25th, 2010, 3:10 am

I don't really see it as an issue. People have misconceptions about sports like Schutzhund regardless of breed. We have a Shepherd who comes into the clinic that was bred to work and the owners drug her 24/7 because they don't do anything with her. When I suggested they try some obedience with her and that I knew of a great Schutzhund club the owner explained to me that the dog was "already aggressive" and they "didn't want to make it worse" even though the whole point would be the train the dog to learn to control it's behavior and use it only when asked. :|

The club I belong to was originally Shepherds only and I've heard stories about them getting flack from local animal control and sometimes the park police just for doing some of their bitework on public property[parks etc] and it freaked people out.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 26th, 2010, 11:49 pm

they got to see a 3 or 4 year old imported dog learn some respect for his handler when commanded to out.


Nice. :rolleyes2:
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Postby furever_pit » November 27th, 2010, 12:32 am

TheRedQueen wrote:
they got to see a 3 or 4 year old imported dog learn some respect for his handler when commanded to out.


Nice. :rolleyes2:


One time correction worked like a charm.

And when AC has no problem with it, why should you?
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Postby mnp13 » November 27th, 2010, 1:45 am

I think that the fact that you even mentioned it means that it was probably far more than a "simple correction.
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Postby furever_pit » November 27th, 2010, 8:23 am

Nope. It was the simple use of two prongs.
It just worked well enough for it to stand out in my memory. I've seen a lot of people try to correct out problems with little to no luck.

But point was also that it was the kind of thing that people who don't know what they are looking at might have an issue with. But then again I have had people pull over on the side of the road to tell me that the prong on my dog's neck is evil...and that's without seeing me give a correction.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 27th, 2010, 10:09 am

furever_pit wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:
they got to see a 3 or 4 year old imported dog learn some respect for his handler when commanded to out.


Nice. :rolleyes2:


One time correction worked like a charm.

And when AC has no problem with it, why should you?


Because 1. there are other ways of getting behavior :doh:

and 2. Why should I trust an AC officer that I've never met? Just being an AC officer does not make them above disdain. :wave2:
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Postby hugapitbull » November 27th, 2010, 10:59 am

Ino wrote:I don't see a problem if training is done responsibly, but I do not care for the "bootcamps" that train a dog for personal protection for a person then give it back. I think that the owner should be present and taking part in the training so they know what to do and how to handle their dog.


I'm not a trainer, nor do I participate in any of the sports, but I whole heatedly agree with this statement. We had Trouble obedience trained while we were on vacation the first year we had her. She never did respond to us the way she did the trainer.
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Postby furever_pit » November 27th, 2010, 11:39 am

TheRedQueen wrote:Because 1. there are other ways of getting behavior :doh:

and 2. Why should I trust an AC officer that I've never met? Just being an AC officer does not make them above disdain. :wave2:


There are other options, but in the end it up to the dog's owner what method they want to use.
I don't pretend to think I have the only answer when it comes to training and certainly don't operate on the pretense that I get to tell others how they should or could train their dog.

But then again my young dog has been outing off the decoy for months. 8)
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 27th, 2010, 11:45 am

furever_pit wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:Because 1. there are other ways of getting behavior :doh:

and 2. Why should I trust an AC officer that I've never met? Just being an AC officer does not make them above disdain. :wave2:


There are other options, but in the end it up to the dog's owner what method they want to use.
I don't pretend to think I have the only answer when it comes to training and certainly don't operate on the pretense that I get to tell others how they should or could train their dog.


Of course it's up to the owner...and I don't think I've ever said that everyone should train my way...if that's what you're getting at. :dance:

But when you mention something like this...I mean, it's a loaded statement...designed to have one of us react. ;) Of course I'm going to comment on it. :| My question: Does the dog out reliably now?
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Postby furever_pit » November 27th, 2010, 12:30 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:Of course it's up to the owner...and I don't think I've ever said that everyone should train my way...if that's what you're getting at. :dance:

But when you mention something like this...I mean, it's a loaded statement...designed to have one of us react. ;) Of course I'm going to comment on it. :| My question: Does the dog out reliably now?


Wasn't said or meant to get a reaction. Was simply part of my point that people who don't know what they are looking at are going to have issues with all kinds of the things we do with our dogs. Doesn't really matter what you are doing, if people don't "get it" some of them will be alarmed.

But yes, the dog outs reliably.
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Postby mnp13 » November 27th, 2010, 12:59 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:But when you mention something like this...I mean, it's a loaded statement...designed to have one of us react. ;) Of course I'm going to comment on it. :| My question: Does the dog out reliably now?


I'd guess yes, because the false "respect" gained from correcting a dog into "compliance" isn't really respect at all. The whole "come up the leash" and "bring it" routine is only talked/bragged about by people who have dogs who don't really want to do what their owners claim.

As I happen to own dog that really does want to back things up, I know the difference. And that difference is, once you strong arm the dog into doing what you want, if the next time they hold on tighter and longer (been there, done that, quite literally hundreds of times)... then they really didn't care what you did. Go toe to toe with a dog that's not being cornered into it, and they will take you up on it every time, until you break their spirit or you find a more appropriate way to communicate with them. (been there, done that)

Pit Bulls are not the same to train in protection sports as herders, the harder you fight them the harder they fight back - it's the fundamental nature of a combat breed. I can't count the number of times we choked Riggs off of things, or tried to correct him to out. It's an exercise in futility with a dog that truly isn't going to give up... or will eventually get fed up enough with the treatment to return the favor.

Granted, I'm not anti-compulsion. However, I generally don't agree with teaching through compulsion. (there are exceptions of course)
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Postby Malli » November 27th, 2010, 2:25 pm

mnp13 wrote:Pit Bulls are not the same to train in protection sports as herders, the harder you fight them the harder they fight back - it's the fundamental nature of a combat breed. I can't count the number of times we choked Riggs off of things, or tried to correct him to out. It's an exercise in futility with a dog that truly isn't going to give up... or will eventually get fed up enough with the treatment to return the favor.


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