DEBATE: Dog Aggression

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby plebayo » November 25th, 2010, 3:19 am

Can you really breed out dog aggression? I mean obviously you could probably produce a dog who is less likely to be dog aggressive, but IMO if a dog doesn't like other dogs, it doesn't like other dogs. This isn't a behavior just limited to Terriers. I'm just not sure who came up with the bright idea that dogs really should love each other. Although they are somewhat pack oriented - they are NOT wolves, their lives don't depend on being social with other dogs.
Suzanne
Seth, CGC & LiLo
♥♥Sofie - Always in my heart. ♥♥
User avatar
plebayo
Mrs. Dr. Kildare
 
Posts: 942
Location: Oregon

Postby Malli » November 25th, 2010, 4:33 am

mnp13 wrote:
I look at Connor's easy going nature, and if dog aggression is his only fault but the rest is good, I'm not going to play with it.


this is the same way I feel about Oscar.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 25th, 2010, 9:16 am

To play devil's advocate again: What if somebody really likes the appearance and good-natured temperament of the pit bull but doesn't WANT a drivey dog, just a pet dog. Wouldn't having pit bulls less prone to dog aggression help these owners keep their dogs out of the media?
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
User avatar
pitbullmamaliz
Working out in the buff causes chafing
 
Posts: 15437
Location: Cleveland, OH

Postby mnp13 » November 25th, 2010, 10:06 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:To play devil's advocate again: What if somebody really likes the appearance and good-natured temperament of the pit bull but doesn't WANT a drivey dog, just a pet dog. Wouldn't having pit bulls less prone to dog aggression help these owners keep their dogs out of the media?

That's like the people who get Shelties but don't want them to bark. Beagles who don't bay. Greyhounds that don't chase. If you don't like the fundamental nature of the breed don't get one.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby furever_pit » November 25th, 2010, 10:34 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:To play devil's advocate again: What if somebody really likes the appearance and good-natured temperament of the pit bull but doesn't WANT a drivey dog, just a pet dog. Wouldn't having pit bulls less prone to dog aggression help these owners keep their dogs out of the media?


Pets are the by-product of a working breeding. Not every pup in a litter is going to be a 10, there will be dogs that are not suitable for working homes. So, while you can get a Pit Bull that is not as drivey as some of its littermates, there is no guarantee that there won't be some DA or DR that crops up in the dog at some point.

If people don't think they want to deal with the whole package of the APBT, they shouldn't get one. Go down to the shelter and find an adult dog of whatever breed that fits their ideal temperament. The breed shouldn't have to change to suit the personalities of people who don't want a real Pit Bull anyway.
User avatar
furever_pit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1138
Location: NC

Postby Malli » November 25th, 2010, 12:39 pm

yep. there are going to be mellower puppies in every litter.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby mnp13 » November 25th, 2010, 1:30 pm

Malli wrote:yep. there are going to be mellower puppies in every litter.

Absolutely. And if you absolutely can not deal with dog aggression, get a stuffed dog. :wink:
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby dlynne1123 » November 25th, 2010, 6:53 pm

ArtGypsy wrote:
Muttkip wrote:They did breed away from the DA, and what did we get?

The Am Satff and the Am Bully.


Really??? :?
So I would have gone out and LOOKED for an AmStaff, I would have had all the great bully traits but less chance that the dog that had DA?

I did not know this...... :|


I've met just as many DA dogs that were Amstaffs and Ambullies as APBTs, I don't think it is less genetic, just that people interpret it differenlty then wind up with a dog fight. Every bully should be treated with the same respect, never trust your dog not to fight!

And on another note the AmBullies are a genetic nightmare! I own one, and shes not orthopedically sound or environmentally sound. She is exactly like her parents and the other dogs at the facility. Its not just her. a whole other subject, they are ruining the APBT. IMO
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby dlynne1123 » November 25th, 2010, 6:57 pm

plebayo wrote:Can you really breed out dog aggression? I mean obviously you could probably produce a dog who is less likely to be dog aggressive, but IMO if a dog doesn't like other dogs, it doesn't like other dogs. This isn't a behavior just limited to Terriers. I'm just not sure who came up with the bright idea that dogs really should love each other. Although they are somewhat pack oriented - they are NOT wolves, their lives don't depend on being social with other dogs.


Exactly, I know even hunting dogs that when hunting do fine in a pack but when at home have no limits to DA. Its drive, And focus, you could lose those when you breed less DA dogs. Not that you should focus on them, but it wouldn't be my breeding goal.
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby dlynne1123 » November 25th, 2010, 7:01 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:To play devil's advocate again: What if somebody really likes the appearance and good-natured temperament of the pit bull but doesn't WANT a drivey dog, just a pet dog. Wouldn't having pit bulls less prone to dog aggression help these owners keep their dogs out of the media?


THey can find a reputable breeder to help them find a puppy thats appropriate and educate them on the breed. If they can't handle the truth, and the chance, they shouldn't have this dog. This is my ultimate dilemma with rescue, I don't want my dogs in any household, or every household, only ones that are prepared. I don't beleive this breed is MEANT for everyone, as is any breed. You pick and choose the positives and negatives you can deal with, in any breed.

I don't like long hair, I'm not oging to get a golden retriever, simple. I don't like guard dogs, I'm not going to get a rottweiler. Its not that I don't like these dogs, its not what I want. I want the athletic, happy go lucky, eager to please, kill the squirrels, APBTs. I don't like barking dogs, I'll avoid herders all together.

Would you go to a pomeranian breeder and say I love your dogs but they bark too much. Do you have any that don't bark?
Ryder - Rescue APBT
Panser on a Roll - APBT (American Bully?)
Gretchen - the red headed cat that thinks shes a dog
Prudence - the new cat on the block to put the dogs in their place!
Punchlines Better Than Lojac - APBT (RIP)
User avatar
dlynne1123
Hyper Adolescent Bully
 
Posts: 289
Location: New England

Postby TheRedQueen » November 25th, 2010, 10:22 pm

mnp13 wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:I'm very, very, very tired...so I'm just rambling. But if there are examples of great dogs that aren't DA, why would everyone think that getting rid of DA mean that everything good about the breed would disappear?


There are also horrible examples of the breed, that their only redeeming quality is that they are not DA.

Would you consider a "herder" a "herder" if it no longer wanted to fetch? No, I'm not saying that dog aggression defines the Pit Bull, but the origins of the breed are the pit, part of the foundation of the breed was dog aggression - but it was also the easy going temperament, the drive, and everything else. How do you keep the two dozen fantastic traits, but remove one? My answer - you don't.



Herders don't fetch...they herd. ;)

And, to answer, yes...I consider my dogs herders...even though so far none of my four Aussies show any interest in herding. Ripley had some interest, but for $100/lesson it was hard for me to watch him eat sheep poop instead. Xander wanted to tug with the shepherd's staff and just waited to go back out of the pen so he could play ball. Inara just watched the sheep move around, but was a bit too far on the "kill/maim" side of herding. Sawyer wouldn't even *watch* the sheep.

So yeah, they don't herd...but they show their type in other ways...in other behaviors. I do "get it" because my breed (Aussie) is moving towards big fluffy golden retriever type dogs...that love everyone and would pass out in the heat if asked to do anything strenuous. I don't want dogs like that...I want my weird herding dogs that are protective/stand-offish/reserved, etc.

And yes, I consider The Wiener a real dachshund even though he's never gone to ground after a badger. ;) I don't need him to do EXACTLY that to prove to me that he's still a houndy little thing.

Still tired, still rambling...so I hope that all made sense...lol
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby mnp13 » November 25th, 2010, 10:53 pm

Herd, fetch... whatever.... You know what I meant! lmao

So yeah, they don't herd...but they show their type in other ways...in other behaviors. I do "get it" because my breed (Aussie) is moving towards big fluffy golden retriever type dogs...that love everyone and would pass out in the heat if asked to do anything strenuous. I don't want dogs like that...I want my weird herding dogs that are protective/stand-offish/reserved, etc.

Exactly. And that shift comes from people deciding that they "like the breed" ... well except for trait x and y ... and then they breed away from it, and other things change as well.

I don't believe it's possible to breed out one trait all by itself, everything is linked to everything else. Who would have thought that blue coats = horrible immune systems? No one, but they do.

I see what you're saying about The Wiener, going to ground doesn't "prove he's a wiener" any more than dog aggression "proves" Riggs is a Pit Bull.

Your dogs are good examples of this discussion actually. They don't herd, and aren't interested in it... but you're not breeding them either. The difference is, you're not saying "gee, I really love Aussies, except for that annoying herding stuff. Let's get rid of it because the breed overall would be better if they didn't like to round things up."
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby TheRedQueen » November 25th, 2010, 11:07 pm

Then there are the breeds that have found a niche in something else...rather than what they were originally bred to do...since we're bringing herders in the picture. Malinois and GSDs are two breeds that I've seen a lot of...breeds that excel in many things, but not herding. ;) Now not to say that there aren't some that do herd...but how many do you see REALLY herding...?

I know many Aussies and BCs that really herd...not just in the ring, but actually live on ranches/farms/farmettes and work with livestock. But I honestly wouldn't get a true herding line Aussie...with proven herding parents/lineage, because that's not what I do.

So I'm not saying that you would only breed for non-DA dogs...but perhaps a toning down of the aggression. There are other breeds that used to be quite aggressive "in the old days" that have been bred to be more friendly, etc. Why not with the pit bulls? Breeding for temperament only in ANY breed is stupid, so I'm not saying that the breeders should ONLY breed for non-DA...but breeding towards the total package with some less DA tendencies could be a good thing.

I have herders that don't herd...but they're athletic, smart, adaptable, biddable, agile, quick, etc...all things that I like. :)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby Malli » November 25th, 2010, 11:21 pm

TheRedQueen wrote: Malinois and GSDs are two breeds that I've seen a lot of...breeds that excel in many things, but not herding. ;) Now not to say that there aren't some that do herd...but how many do you see REALLY herding...?



Until I started to get into dogs, throughout my childhood and late teens, I actually had no idea why German Shepherds were called German Shepherds, it never even ocurred to me that it was related to herding sheep. That was what Border Collies did :lol3:
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby mnp13 » November 25th, 2010, 11:33 pm

I see what you're saying, but part of the fundamental nature of the breed at its inception was dog aggression, tempered with a clear head to know the difference between a dog and a person even under incredible stress and pain. Is it useful now? No, as no one I know fights dogs. However, very few breeds are used for their original purpose, JRT's and other "ratters" were on ships to keep the holds vermin free over ocean crossings. Not necessary any more, obviously.

Removing dog aggression from the breed is like removing the herding from yours. There are always degrees to it of course, you have aussies that don't happen to herd, there are many people who have Pit Bulls who don't happen to be dog aggressive. But breeding away from those original purposes is what I find objectionable.

With the hundreds of breeds out there, there are other breeds that have many of the Pit Bull's good characteristics but not the higher probability of dog aggression.

Is dog aggression "fun" or "convenient"? No. Crate and rotate is a royal pain in the ass. But overall, even with living with it for coming up on four years, it's just part of the routine now. I truly don't look at DA as "good" or "bad" it just is. If I could magic that single breed trait out and not touch anything else, would I? Sure. But it's not possible to, and everything else that could be lost isn't worth it to me.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby TheRedQueen » November 26th, 2010, 10:12 pm

I do see what you're saying, Michelle...I really do. My problem with this type of thing, is that working with rescues and breed dogs...I just see so many horrendous temperaments and aggression issues (DA and HA)...and I just don't see "family pets" much anymore. My own personal theory is that the lack of easy-going dogs at shelters and at breeders is why people are turning to these lazy, idiotic doodles so much nowadays...because doodle breeders breed for temperament above all else (with no regard for health, structure, etc).

I don't think breeding for temperament only is the way to go either, but honestly...so many people want easy-going dogs that can take what life throws at them...that I think breeders (and rescues) need to be aware of what they're doing. We live closer together, we live in high-stress environments, and we subject our dogs to sooooo many things nowadays. Gone are the days where dogs could get away with being dogs...bites are taken seriously now, instead of "what were you doing to annoy the dog?" Dogs don't get to run around and be dogs as much anymore...even dog parks are crowded and stressful now. We subject our dogs to a lot of shit...and I think that all breeders, of EVERY breed need to keep that in mind.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby furever_pit » November 26th, 2010, 11:21 pm

Or breeders just need to screen their buyers and owners more carefully. If someone doesn't want to deal with the things that come with the breed then they should be getting a different dog. Or if people want a dog with a known temperament they should go to the shelter and get an adult dog.

I honestly think that dogs would be better off if breeders were more willing to cull their progeny and less willing to hand them out to John Q. Public.

Or perhaps owners need to take more responsibility for their pets. Contain them properly. Pursue even basic training. Learn to read their pets signals so that when their pet does get stressed, that they can take control of the situation. (As a sidenote: dogs that find this world so incredibly stressful are not well tempered animals imo - ESPECIALLY a bulldog.)
User avatar
furever_pit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1138
Location: NC

Postby TheRedQueen » November 26th, 2010, 11:47 pm

furever_pit wrote:Or breeders just need to screen their buyers and owners more carefully. If someone doesn't want to deal with the things that come with the breed then they should be getting a different dog.

I do agree that better screening, and better research on the owner's part is a good thing.

Or if people want a dog with a known temperament they should go to the shelter and get an adult dog.


But honestly...have you seen some of these dogs that rescues are saving nowadays? I mean...I know many people that got turned off of rescuing by going to the shelter and finding it full of aggressive or fearful dogs. I find that extremely sad...as I'm into rescuing, myself. I have had my share of fosters...and not all were family pet quality.

I honestly think that dogs would be better off if breeders were more willing to cull their progeny and less willing to hand them out to John Q. Public.


Then why breed at all? Breed for that ONE dog out of a litter that might be worthwhile in the ring? :|

Or perhaps owners need to take more responsibility for their pets. Contain them properly. Pursue even basic training. Learn to read their pets signals so that when their pet does get stressed, that they can take control of the situation. (As a sidenote: dogs that find this world so incredibly stressful are not well tempered animals imo - ESPECIALLY a bulldog.)


Most people want a dog that can sit quietly in a crate during the day while they're gone for the day, to greet them when they get home and let the kids play around them, to walk politely on a leash during walks, to be generally well-behaved when people come over, etc. Is a lot of this training-based...sure. But who/what the dog is plays into this. I don't particularly want a dog like this...but breeders and rescues have to realize that most people don't want a project of any sort. And really...it'd be lovely for every dog owner to become well-read in dog language and training...but it's not going to happen. So having well-tempered dogs to adopt/buy would be the best thing...imho.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

Postby furever_pit » November 27th, 2010, 12:29 am

TheRedQueen wrote:But honestly...have you seen some of these dogs that rescues are saving nowadays? I mean...I know many people that got turned off of rescuing by going to the shelter and finding it full of aggressive or fearful dogs. I find that extremely sad...as I'm into rescuing, myself. I have had my share of fosters...and not all were family pet quality.


And that is why shelters and rescues should cull the population as well.
On the other hand, I have seen rescue dogs that go on to be decent workers.

I could easily see the APBT being ruined/severely weakened within a few generations if steering away from DA dogs and towards dog social dogs were to become the trend. It is a lot harder to get traits back once you breed away from them than you would think (I am talking about what other traits could be linked to the DA.)

I guess I just don't understand the idea that an entire breed, the entire foundation upon which that breed was built, should be revised in order to suit a public client that is not even truly interested in the breed. If people are unable or unwilling to accept the history of the breed and respect where these dogs came from enough to at least understand what could lay within each of them, then they are not people I personally want to have Pit Bulls.

TheRedQueen wrote:Then why breed at all? Breed for that ONE dog out of a litter that might be worthwhile in the ring?


Just so we are clear: I don't speak in terms of the conformation right, I couldn't care less about that endeavor to be honest; I speak in terms of working dogs. But if all a breeder gets out of a litter is one worthwhile dog then they probably shouldn't repeat the breeding. lol. I know several breeders (not just of APBTs) who cull their litters. Even after the those decisions are made there are usually several pups to keep within the program or to be placed in working homes with other people who are trying to preserve and better the breed.
User avatar
furever_pit
Supremely Bully
 
Posts: 1138
Location: NC

Postby TheRedQueen » November 27th, 2010, 10:08 am

furever_pit wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:But honestly...have you seen some of these dogs that rescues are saving nowadays? I mean...I know many people that got turned off of rescuing by going to the shelter and finding it full of aggressive or fearful dogs. I find that extremely sad...as I'm into rescuing, myself. I have had my share of fosters...and not all were family pet quality.


And that is why shelters and rescues should cull the population as well.
On the other hand, I have seen rescue dogs that go on to be decent workers.


You don't see my arguing for no-kill...

hahaha..."decent workers". All of mine are rescues...and trust me when I say that my rescues compete in the same levels in flyball as do purpose-bred dogs...Score actually outshines most of the sport mixes and border collies and malinois in this region. ;) I know, I know...you were probably saying this about protection work... :dance: don't worry, I get it... :devil:

TheRedQueen wrote:Then why breed at all? Breed for that ONE dog out of a litter that might be worthwhile in the ring?


Just so we are clear: I don't speak in terms of the conformation right, I couldn't care less about that endeavor to be honest; I speak in terms of working dogs. But if all a breeder gets out of a litter is one worthwhile dog then they probably shouldn't repeat the breeding. lol. I know several breeders (not just of APBTs) who cull their litters. Even after the those decisions are made there are usually several pups to keep within the program or to be placed in working homes with other people who are trying to preserve and better the breed.


Just to be clear back, when I said..."in the ring", I meant whichever RING that might be...I was actually thinking of sports...I could have used the word "field" or "arena" or something...but I just used the term "ring" as an all-emcompassing term for getting out to compete. Conformation stuff doesn't play a big part in my life...so that's not what I meant by the word. ;) I meant it to differentiate between sports and the real world.

And no, I'm not down with culling...I think it's irreponsible to breed when you don't have proper homes lined up for the puppies...and if those pups can't go into pet homes...or the like, then I think you have to re-think your breedings. :|
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
User avatar
TheRedQueen
I thought I lost my Wiener... but then I found him.
 
Posts: 7184
Location: Maryland

PreviousNext

Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot]

cron