I am in tears...

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Postby pitsnok » November 19th, 2010, 7:30 pm

Today when I was crating boss, he turned around and bit me. Just a nip on my hand, not a big deal...so I thought.

Just about ten minutes ago I was crating him, and he turned and latched onto my left arm, when I got it free, he grabbed on to my right. This was not just nipping. It hurt. He was biting me. I've never been bitten by a dog before. not like this. I'm already bruised where the teeth marks are. It didn't break the skin, like there's no blood or anything, but it was hard...and it hurt. I think I must have pretty thick skin.

I have no idea what to do. I feel like a failure. I don't think it's medical because he's always sort of had an aversion to going into his crate, but he has always tolerated it. Apparently now he just decided he is going to do something about it. It's strange because when we first got him he would bite during play, and was a little more protective. We worked on it and he hasn't even mouthed since then. Sure, he has had his little spats with the other dogs, but for the most part he is just a lazy cuddle monster.

Now I don't feel like I'm capable of handling the issues he has.

What do I do? I don't know if I should surrender him to a rescue? I hate the thought of having to put him to sleep, but I've known times where that is the best solution to an ill-tempered dog.

I'm just so upset. So upset.
~Brittany, Degan and Harlow's mom


"It is true that Pit Bulls grab and hold on. But what they most often grab and refuse to let go of is your heart, not your arm."
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Postby mnp13 » November 19th, 2010, 8:25 pm

Honestly? You keep him and learn to manage the issues or your put him down. I'm not being mean, just truthful and direct.

No rescue that I know of - that is reputable - takes a dog that has been biting for no reason. Do I personally count what he did as a "bite"? No. If he didn't break skin, he didn't want to break skin. However, he wanted to communicate to you very very clearly that he doesn't want to go in his crate for whatever reason. In my opinion, that will escalate if you don't find the source and fix it soon.

I am not pointing fingers, you didn't necessarily "cause" this. Something may have triggered it before you got him, or something you did by mistake at some point (I taught Riggs to bite my hands - and draw blood - so trust me, I know about teaching bad things by mistake.)

You are capable of handling the issues if you want to be, and it's ok if you don't want to be. Having a dog that is willing to grab you (and warn or more than warn) is a difficult task. I have one, it's not easy, I manage because I want to manage - if it ever gets to the point that I don't want to manage I will put him down. I'll be devastated by the decision, but it's the only safe and correct decision.
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Postby plebayo » November 19th, 2010, 8:57 pm

I think this is something that his been building. The dogs move into your house no problem, they get comfortable and Boss tries to eat Harlow, he gets even more comfortable and tries to eat you. Although I agree it was a "warning" and that if he wanted to draw blood he would have, I still would not take that action lightly at all. He shouldn't be warning you about anything, you told him to get into his kennel. It's not his decision, it is yours.

If you choose to keep him and work with him/manage it, I suggest you get him into an obedience class by a reputable trainer right away, while also implementing a good NILIF policy. I think an obedience class would help you establish a better working relationship in terms of making him do things like sit, stay, heel etc. It might help you re-establish his place and your place in your house by making him work for you.

I have to agree with Michelle, I don't think it would be fair to make someone else responsible for him be it a person or a rescue. It's unfortunate but I think you either need to stick with it - again maybe bring in a trainer for another pair of eyes, or euthanize him.
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Postby pocketpit » November 19th, 2010, 9:09 pm

I am not one for euthanizing for behavioral problems normally but when we are talking about a foster dog things are different in my opinion. I could not nor would I recommend adopting out a dog with a bite history or behaviors that indicate a bite is coming. A strong obedience and NILF routine is all a lot of dogs need to get on track and correct many behavior problems. If you can pursue that then there may still be hope for Boss. However if it's not feasable for you then I would recomend considering euthanasia.
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Postby amazincc » November 19th, 2010, 9:16 pm

Oh, Brittany... I am so, so sorry to hear that. :( :hug3:
I think it's always a gamble when taking in an adult dog w/an unknown (or abuse) history.

Let me tell you about Luka... when I first brought him home he experienced a ton of changes, all at once. He became an "inside dog", he didn't have to worry about food, toys, treats... he had his very own crate and blanket, he received vet care for the first time in his life - you know, ALL the basics EVERY dog deserves right from the start.
For the first six weeks he was the perfect houseguest - he got along well w/the other dogs, after a few accidents he learned to go outside to potty, he shared common beds and toys without a problem, and he slowly got used to our daily routine.
Because of all his physical limitations we went to hydro therapy a few times, and Luka seemed to enjoy it immensely. He was also very good around my vet and any "strangers' he encountered, like the physical therapist, and the neuro doctor. Just perfect in every way.
Which was remarkable in itself, given what he went through before he came to me... and everyone who met him remarked on that, how very good-natured he seemed to be, despite his previous experience w/people.

Once the "honeymoon period" was over however... things started to happen. Small stuff at first - he started mouthing me at feeding time or when he demanded attention (like wanting to be petted), and we worked on that for a while until he realized that his behavior wasn't accceptable.
He also started to get very snarky w/Sepp and Faust... he grabbed Faust by the face and neck twice, and he nailed Sepp in the shoulder and neck... blood everywhere. None of the attacks were provoked by the boys, because I was in the yard all three times when it happened. Faust just yelped and came running to me, but Sepp managed to get Luka on his back and was ready to "finish" the fight. Luckily I was able to call him off, but it scared the crap out of me.
After those incidents I started to crate and rotate immediately.
Then Luka started to get very defensive when crated... he would try to "attack" anyone who happened to walk past his crate (dogs AND people) when he had a bone/treat/toy. I moved his crate, so foot traffic was minimal, and that pretty much solved the problem.
A few weeks later Luka was out in the yard, and grabbed the boy who was mowing my lawn by the thigh. He knew this boy very well, had played w/him, and this also happened out of the blue.
I started keeping Luka away from everyone who came to my house after that... he was either crated or leashed to me when I had visitors.
When my brother came to visit I slowly introduced the two, and Luka seemed to be okay... until my brother was out in the yard one day, and Luka lunged at him when he came up my porch steps. Luckily Luka was tethered at the time, and his teeth missed my brothers leg by inches. This was a serious attack... hackles up, teeth bared... but tail wagging. Not good at all.
So... when Luka was out of his crate, the other dogs and my brother had to be elsewhere (crates and different bedroom) to stay safe.
We managed that as well, because I was determined to make it work.
During all those incidents I had many conversations w/our vet... we put Luka on some pain meds, because he experienced muscle spasms. We thought that his behavior was *maybe* pain-related, because he started to drag his hind legs a lot more and he had more trouble getting around.
It didn't seem to make a difference - a few days later he grabbed my arm twice, HARD, when I tried to put him in his crate.
I still wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt, since I was never scared of him... and since, most of the time, he was such a huge mushball when he was around me, and an absolute sweetheart.
I really loved him, w/all my heart... :(
We had gone to our vet regularly for check-ups, at his second-to-last visit my vet strongly recommended euthanizing him... she thought he was becoming too unpredictable and dangerous.
I refused and took him back home.
Then over the weekend he had two very bad seizures, and he started to cough up blood... the heartworms were taking their toll on his body at last. He started refusing food and he was very miserable... so, I made another appointment to have him checked out.
He had to be muzzled (for the first time ever) in order for my brother to drive us to the vet, and in order to be examined.
My vet dx'd him w/encephalitis (probably caused by the heartworms) among other things, and after a long and tearful conversation I decided that it was best to let him go... in my head I knew it was the right decision, but in my heart I'm still questioning it every single day.

So, anyway... that is MY story about a "rescue dog" who was only w/me for three months.
I don't know if Boss has any health issues, or if his behavioral issues can be resolved... but, please, don't blame yourself. You took him in, got him vetted, gave him a chance at a better life... it's already more than most people would've done.
There is no telling what he experienced in the past, or if his past still has an impact on him now... but if he's not adoptable, and you can't manage him... you know what you need to do.
Can you first maybe have him evaluated by a behaviorist? Is that an option at all?

I, personally, would not surrender him to a rescue if he's deemed dangerous or unadoptable... as hard as it would be to make that last final vet trip... I would take him myself. :sad2:

Also, please, be cautious when you interact w/him from now on, and keep him away from the other dogs before things escalate and you, the other dogs, or someone else, gets seriously hurt.
I know what you're going through, and I'm really sorry... I also don't have much advise, but I'm extremely sympathetic to your situation. :hug3:
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Postby amazincc » November 19th, 2010, 9:32 pm

P.S
Despite all his physical limitations and his other health issues... I treated Luka just like all the others, and had an obedience and NILIF regiment in place from day one. :|
I realize that our stories are not quite the same, but it was recommended to me several times to place Luka w/a rescue as well. I also had several offers from people who would've adopted him, but I felt that he was my responsibility up to the end.
It's not going to be an easy decision on how to proceed from here... it never is. :cry:
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Postby pocketpit » November 19th, 2010, 9:50 pm

So, anyway... that is MY story about a "rescue dog" who was only w/me for three months.
I don't know if Boss has any health issues, or if his behavioral issues can be resolved... but, please, don't blame yourself. You took him in, got him vetted, gave him a chance at a better life... it's already more than most people would've done.
There is no telling what he experienced in the past, or if his past still has an impact on him now... but if he's not adoptable, and you can't manage him... you know what you need to do.


Pefectly put Christine.
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Postby mnp13 » November 19th, 2010, 11:01 pm

amazincc wrote:I realize that our stories are not quite the same, but it was recommended to me several times to place Luka w/a rescue as well. I also had several offers from people who would've adopted him, but I felt that he was my responsibility up to the end.


And that is why I respect you so much. I keep my cards quite close to the chest with Riggs, a lot of people love him, I adore him, but he will never be rehomed. There are too many out there like Connor looking for homes (all the drive, all the willingness to please, none of the issues) to pass on a problem child like Riggs. And now that I'm crying just typing that out, don't think that's an easy "off hand" comment.

Like Luka, like Riggs, like my dog Cleo who was put down over 9 years ago, Boss has become yours until his time arrives. Unless you find that amazing, perfect, one in a million who just must have a dog that is grabbing you for no reason... and I'd still probably say the same thing.
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Postby pitsnok » November 20th, 2010, 12:11 am

Thank you guys for all the responses. I think in the beginning I was kind of panicked. I was thinking a rescue would have the resources to test/rehab him if needed. Honestly I was scared at the moment, thinking there is no way to keep him. I know I have to. I took these boys in, therefore they're my responsibility. If it gets bad enough then he will just have to be put down. I couldn't ever pawn him off on someone else, because then I would be responsible for anything happening in the future.

I have no idea what the future holds with him. It breaks my heart because I have a pretty deep connection to Boss. He loves to just... be with me. I think he should have always been with a one-dog person. I can't imagine what could have happened in his past to cause these behaviors. Or perhaps he just has an unstable temperament. I just hate that this ever even happens.

There is a local training facility called K9U. They breed and train police dogs, and have every level of training imaginable. The prices seem relatively reasonable so far. I tried to get a job there once and the people seemed legitimate. I was hoping some of you more expert people could give me your two cents on them.
Here is a link to their website, I would really appreciate it if you guys could give me some input.
http://www.myk9u.com/about.html

Anyway, this just..........sucks........it sucks that my first time trying to rescue puts me in this situation, it sucks that I don't know more about training/rehab......it just freaking sucks that he has to have issues. He is so perfect otherwise. The absolute worst part is that it's not his fault.

All I can do is try to stay REALLY positive and hope we can 'fix' him. Although I sort of feel like I'm facing this reality of dogs being unfixable.

Ugh. :cry:
~Brittany, Degan and Harlow's mom


"It is true that Pit Bulls grab and hold on. But what they most often grab and refuse to let go of is your heart, not your arm."
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 20th, 2010, 1:04 am

My 2 cents is not to go with that training facility - they're anti treats and clicker, which means they rely upon praise and pack leadership stuff most likely. It's my touchy feely side, but the best way to work with aggression is with positive reinforcement and marker training.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.
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Postby amalie79 » November 20th, 2010, 1:35 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:My 2 cents is not to go with that training facility - they're anti treats and clicker, which means they rely upon praise and pack leadership stuff most likely. It's my touchy feely side, but the best way to work with aggression is with positive reinforcement and marker training.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.


There's also something a little off about the whole patent-pending, copyright, trademark, etc thing with what techniques they DO use.

I understand how heartbreaking and frustrating this is. Simon can be unpredictable, especially with strangers. Visitors just aren't allowed to touch him and if I can't trust my guests not to comply with that one request, they just can't come over. And trust me when I tell you my feelings were hurt and I was shocked the first time he growled and went after me-- I've had him 15 years, though a lot of this is due to old age and pain. On the other hand, using rewards every time visitors came over and allowing visitors to give him treats themselves mean that he's now thrilled to see guests. Can they reach out and pet him? NO. But his attitude is definitely better. And keeping his pain under control is helpful in our relationship. But he'll still have to be carefully "managed" for the rest of his life for everyone's safety. Have you had Boss fully checked by a vet so you know there isn't something painful going on? At any rate, mine is also a very different situation than yours for a number of reasons, but just know that there are many of us here who've dealt with unpredictable dogs and understand where you're coming from.

And not to give too much of a silver lining to this, but at least it was the same trigger both times, ie, the crate. Is there some way that you can make crate time Best Time Ever? Keep a kong or chewy or great treats to toss in there to coax him in so you don't have to handle him there at all? It's just good that you've got a common denominator in both incidents-- it's a place to start.

You've got a lot of support here whatever choices you make.
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Postby furever_pit » November 20th, 2010, 1:47 am

I have to agree with the others that when we get dogs that are willing to bite for no reason or who have bad behavioral issues that it is not fair to pass them off onto a rescue or to another home. It is never an easy thing to consider that if we cannot care for/manage the dog that the best thing may be to put them down. It should not be an easy thing.

If it were me and I were going to give management a shot I would buckle down on the dog. Make him work for everything...food, water, toys, attention, everything. I would leash the dog to me and take away any extra privileges. No time on the furniture, no time in the bed, no time with the other dogs. Nothing extra. He has to learn his place.

I also have to agree with Liz, any trainer who is totally against any particular method is closed-minded and that is going to effect how they work with your dog. Treats and clicker/marker are a good thing to try with any dog. To just rule it out makes little sense. However, I am also not against taking a dog to task for coming at its handler...it really really just depends on the individual dog.
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Postby amazincc » November 20th, 2010, 2:42 am

Ugh... I got to
understanding that the domestic dog's primary duty is to please its' master
and stopped reading... :rolleyes2:

IF Boss were living at my house, and IF I were willing and/or able to deal with him further I would
a. get him checked out thoroughly by a vet first, and by thoroughly I mean the works - bloodwork, neuro exam, etc. - to rule out any underlying medical issues, like thyroid problems, for example.
b. get him evaluated by a board-certified and reputable behaviorist IF the vet exam deems him to be completely healthy. A good behaviorist will also be able to get a handle on what type of aggression Boss is displaying... fear aggression and true human aggression are two completely different animals, and will require very different approaches. Again, just two examples.
And if Boss is truly just being a "bossy asshat" a good behaviorist will spot that VERY quickly as well. lol
c. get involved w/a reputable trainer who is willing to adjust his/her training methods to the needs of the dog IF the behaviorist thinks Boss is a good candidate for behavior modification and would benefit from working w/a trainer.

What I would NOT do is try to "combat violence with violence". I think most dogs who have displayed some form of aggression will not respond positively to being "pushed into a corner', and things could escalate very quickly... right now Boss doesn't sound like he would choose "flight", and "fight" could become very ugly.
Keep that in mind when a facility doesn't even want to consider using treat- and/or clicker-based training.
(Simply boggles my mind, especially since this guy is supposed to be certified up the butt when it comes to animal behavior/training... wow.) :shock:

In the meantime I would agree w/practicing strict NILIF and making him work for every little thing... absolutely. And making crate time as pleasant as possible - I had to do the same w/Luka to avoid being grabbed and mouthed when he needed to be crated. I saved some really yummy treats for just those occasions so I wouldn't have to get physical w/him at all.
Most importantly... use caution and stay safe!
And know that we're here to support you in every way possible... :hug3:



(Also you might want to try telling Boss to "KNOCK IT OFF!" in a very stern voice, and take away his cell phone and tv privileges for at least a week! :neener: :wink:)
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Postby mnp13 » November 20th, 2010, 2:59 am

furever_pit wrote: I would leash the dog to me and take away any extra privileges. No time on the furniture, no time in the bed, no time with the other dogs. Nothing extra. He has to learn his place.

I agree with the second part of this, but not the first. At this point he has grabbed her twice for no apparent reason. Leashing him to her, when the issue is apparently the crate, but may also be linked to something else could end up being disastrous if she does something that sets him off.

Earlier this summer Riggs did something - I can't remember what - and I got really pissed at him. I ignored him completely for a week. He was out of his crate, but I didn't talk to him, pet him, or interact with him besides taking him out and feeding him. Mr. Attitude came down a few notches by the time I was ready to acknowledge his existence. Most dogs crave attention, and that much time with almost no interaction had him practically begging to be perfect. All of a sudden I had the most obedient, well mannered crap head you could ever wish for. :wink:

It's really hard to do (when you're not so mad that you want to kill the dog! lol) but it works very well. All that said, also be aware that if NILIF is a total reverse from your normal habits with him that he may act out a bit because of the loss of privileges. If the other dogs are allowed to still do things that he isn't, allowing those freedoms infront of him can cause other bad behaviors to come out.
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Postby amazincc » November 20th, 2010, 3:16 am

mnp13 wrote:I ignored him completely for a week. He was out of his crate, but I didn't talk to him, pet him, or interact with him besides taking him out and feeding him.



Omg... THAT is some willpower and self-discipline you have right there. :shock:

I barely last a couple of hours w/stuff like that, unless it's accidental - like when I forgot Sepp on the front porch for over seven hours one night, because he wouldn't come when I called him inside. :oops:
But, agreed... it did WONDERS for his disposition and listening skills. He has not exhibited any "sudden deafness" since. lol
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Postby pitsnok » November 20th, 2010, 4:45 am

Okay, this might be a stupid question, but what if he doesn't know that many commands? Boss knows sit, and sometimes knows lay down. He knows other common sense thinks such as stay, and no and down, but as far as 'tricks' go, that's as far as we've gotten. So what if he's laying down... should there just be no attention given to him? Seriously, this is probably common sense but I mean, all of our dogs have commands before they get to eat... and Harlow has to sit before I will pet her. That's really as much NILIF as we've had to do...As far as everything else though, I'm not sure how to really enforce NILIF with a dog that knows very little.
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Postby amazincc » November 20th, 2010, 5:07 am

NILIF isn't about doing tricks... if Boss only knows the sit command, just use that for now.
NILIF is about the dog earning whatever he desires... be it food, play, walks, whatever.
It'll teach him that he will need to obey in order to get what he wants, or he goes without. It'll also teach him that he cannot demand things, because you are the one in control... YOU are the one w/all the resources, after all.
Obviously you don't want to starve him, or deprieve him of going out to potty... so make sure you use a command he is already familiar with. :wink:

Here's a great link to explain the basics about NILIF - http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm
You can also do a search on the forum for it. :)
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Postby amazincc » November 20th, 2010, 5:54 am

pitsnok wrote:As far as everything else though, I'm not sure how to really enforce NILIF with a dog that knows very little.


The way I look at NILIF... it puts me in charge while still giving the dog choices. It definitely eliminates the constant "power struggles" w/a difficult dog, since you leave it up to him/her to make the "right" decision.
Be respectful and obey... and earn what you want.
Or be a butthead and get ignored... and get NOTHING in return. Zip... nadda... nilch. Not even negative attention (and that is the most important - and hardest - part actually... at least it was for me. :wink: )
I used to be a nagger... sit... sit... SIT... SIT DOWN... rinse and repeat about 500 times. After a while the dogs tuned me out, I got frustrated, we accomplished nothing.
Now I say something once... the dogs either listen or they don't, but they always have a choice and they live w/the consequences afterwards. I simply walk away, and I don't stress about it anymore. :|

I used to think that NILIF was some sort of punishment, but it really isn't... your dog is simply choosing the consequences of his/her actions, and you'd be surprised at how fast most dogs catch on when you start ignoring asshattery and only reward good manners.

Trust me... Sepp is no Einstein (no offense meant to my sweet Sepp, but that boy has major impulse control issues at times :rolleyes2: ), but even he figured that one out pretty damned fast. lol
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Postby amazincc » November 20th, 2010, 6:10 am

Forgot to add... be consistent. Don't do NILIF on some days, and let Boss get away w/murder on others. You want to teach him that NILIF is a way of life, and you want to make sure that, from now on, he ALWAYS knows what to expect when he chooses certain behaviors... good and/or bad.

I promise... it's NOT as complicated as it sounds, and you might be able to see a change in him in a few days already. :)
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Postby amalie79 » November 20th, 2010, 8:02 am

Keep that in mind when a facility doesn't even want to consider using treat- and/or clicker-based training.
(Simply boggles my mind, especially since this guy is supposed to be certified up the butt when it comes to animal behavior/training... wow.)


I read this part of the site over and over...I think he's of the school of thought that dogs only want to please us and our satisfaction should be enough of a reinforcer.

Uhhh... not at my house, it isn't! 8)

I'm guessing it's this guy's approach; I thought of him immediately:
http://bradpattison.com/page/pattison-team

My favorite quote is
He noticed how the Alpha dogs did not give treats to the younger students and wondered why we humans give treats when a dog does something that is simply expected


In other words, there's some dominance theory in the language, but I think the K9 trainers market themselves as positive reinforcers because they assert that our praise is the treat. It just sure as hell wouldn't be very effective with my guys and seems like a waste of a great, easy, cheap, effective resource (ie, food).

And food can help you be as hands off with Boss as possible right now.
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