Clicker training "high drive" dogs...video

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Postby TheRedQueen » November 4th, 2010, 9:34 pm

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 5th, 2010, 6:30 pm

:clap:
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Postby furever_pit » November 5th, 2010, 9:35 pm

A few months ago I swung by Wallace Payne's Schutzhund club on my way to a seminar and they were doing some really interesting work with the clicker. Marker training for obedience in schutzhund is pretty well known and most people I talk to use it now. But Wallace's club was the first time I had seen it used for the protection phase...they were using the clicker to mark the desired behavior and then the bite was the dog's reward. For example, having the dog perform an attention heel near the helper, click, "packen", and then the dog bit. It was pretty cool to see. That is one impressive club, if anyone ever has the chance to go check it out I STRONGLY recommend it.

Even in sport and with high drive dogs, clicker/marker training is no longer an anomaly. A lot of people use it now. But most still use corrections too.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 5th, 2010, 11:57 pm

furever_pit wrote:Even in sport and with high drive dogs, clicker/marker training is no longer an anomaly. A lot of people use it now. But most still use corrections too.


That's usually referred to as "Training with a clicker" rather than "Clicker training". ;) And while I know people that train protection/schutzhund with true clicker training (no physical corrections), I still hear a lot of "but you still need corrections" in those venues.

btw, I'm assuming you are referring to bitework/protection/schutzhund/etc when you say "sport dogs"...? I think of sport dogs as flyball, agility, etc. So it all depends on where you're coming from...lol.
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"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby furever_pit » November 6th, 2010, 12:36 am

Yes, when I say "sport dogs" I am talking about dogs that participate in/compete in the protection sports...so those are the dogs I was referring to in my post.

I have also always heard it referred to as clicker or marker training. Doubt it makes a difference one way or the other as anyone familiar with the method will know what you are talking about.

I won't tell anyone they "need corrections" for anything. If it's not something they want to use, then that is their choice. However, I and many others choose to do otherwise.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 6th, 2010, 12:50 am

furever_pit wrote:I have also always heard it referred to as clicker or marker training. Doubt it makes a difference one way or the other as anyone familiar with the method will know what you are talking about.


No, it's not really the same thing. If you are really, truly clicker training, you are not using physical corrections. Simple as that. You are using Positive Reinforcement as the basis of your training, and some Negative punishment where needed. You are using the clicker as the main tool to help with that training. People that are adding Positive punishment while using the clicker for marking some behaviors are "training with a clicker". It's honestly very frustrating to see people claim..."I'm clicker training" when the dog is wearing a prong or electric collar. ;)

http://www.clickertrain.com/articles/fisherpt2.shtml

I won't tell anyone they "need corrections" for anything. If it's not something they want to use, then that is their choice. However, I and many others choose to do otherwise.


You're missing my point entirely. :rolleyes2: I didn't say that *you* say that corrections are needed. I said that the majority of people that I have met that train in some bitework sport use corrections and don't believe that you can get the same drive/performance from the dog without *SOME* correction...even if they're using a clicker/marker signal for parts of their training. How many people competing in bitework do you know that only use R+/P- ?
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby iluvk9 » November 6th, 2010, 6:46 am

:shock: The whole thing amazes me! And the trainers were rather handsome, too. :wink:
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Postby furever_pit » November 6th, 2010, 3:35 pm

Erin, I got your point. I was simply stating (as someone who participates in protection sports) that I would never personally force the use of corrections on anyone. People can do whatever they want with their dog, no skin off of my nose. If someone doesn't want to use corrections, no one can make them...they always have the option of leaving that club/trainer/group and finding one that is more in line with their own training methodologies.

I am one of those that don't believe that the same level of success and performance can be achieved without the use of corrections. When someone who "truly clicker trains" is able to compete at a national or international level then I may reconsider.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 6th, 2010, 4:17 pm

furever_pit wrote:Erin, I got your point. I was simply stating (as someone who participates in protection sports) that I would never personally force the use of corrections on anyone. People can do whatever they want with their dog, no skin off of my nose. If someone doesn't want to use corrections, no one can make them...they always have the option of leaving that club/trainer/group and finding one that is more in line with their own training methodologies.


Again, I wasn't saying that it was the only way...just that *most* groups I have seen working out there believe that *some* things can be done with a clicker, but that you need corrections at least for proofing.

I am one of those that don't believe that the same level of success and performance can be achieved without the use of corrections. When someone who "truly clicker trains" is able to compete at a national or international level then I may reconsider.


:| This is a common argument from traditional trainers...and there are tons of examples of clicker trained dogs excelling in different venues (flyball, agility, schutzhund, obedience, etc).
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 6th, 2010, 5:06 pm

An example off the top of my head of a world-famous clicker trainer that has many HUGE accomplishments: Susan Garrett
http://www.clickerdogs.com/susangarrett.htm
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby iluvk9 » November 6th, 2010, 5:20 pm

*ahem* And again....handsome trainers. :wink:
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Postby furever_pit » November 6th, 2010, 5:28 pm

I am aware that there are people seeing success with clicker training. More power to them. But (and I mean no offense here) flyball,agility, obedience, dock diving, etc are not protection sports. Not saying that protection sports are inherently better just that these are very different venues. Even Schutzhund is not what ring sport, PSA, or KNPV are when it comes to protection sports...less pressure from the decoy, little environmental stress, and it is a well-rehearsed pattern that is the same every single time you compete.

For a lot of people involved in protection sports it is largely about proving a dog's worth, proving a bloodline, testing what you have at the end of your leash and if or how it can be used to produce even better working dogs. It's not just about going through the motions and completing a desired behavior, it is about power, presence, attitude, and the ability to keep coming through stress, pressure, and threats from the decoy. Using corrections from both the handler and the decoy will tell you a lot about your dog, that's part of the value of them.

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one Erin. I have no intention of trying to change your mind and you're not gonna be able to change mine. 8)
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 6th, 2010, 5:41 pm

I'm not trying to change your mind...I realize the futility of that. :D But for other that are reading this thread, I wanted to clear up the idea that there are no world-class dogs that are clicker trained...regardless of venue. There are amazing trainers that train police dogs, schutzhund, etc all with pure clicker training.

I understand what you're saying about different venues...and I understand. Because honestly, I think the hardest job that we give dogs is that of Assistance dog (Hearing, Service, Guide, etc)...so I'm slightly biased too. ;) Having a dog that can handle ANY situation that is thrown at it, show grace under pressure, be "polite" to everything that crosses their path, etc and to do it 24/7...that's what amazes me.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby furever_pit » November 6th, 2010, 6:01 pm

And I'm just clarifying that while there are trainers finding success with pure clicker training, the best protection sport trainers and competitors in the world still use corrections. :wink:

If purely positive methods were really all that much better suited for the protection sports don't you think someone using such methods would be standing on the national or international podium by now?
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 6th, 2010, 7:01 pm

furever_pit wrote:And I'm just clarifying that while there are trainers finding success with pure clicker training, the best protection sport trainers and competitors in the world still use corrections. :wink:

If purely positive methods were really all that much better suited for the protection sports don't you think someone using such methods would be standing on the national or international podium by now?


I dunno...I don't really follow protection sports, so I don't know who is standing on the podiums, honestly.

But to tell you the truth, I've found protection sport trainers some of the *most* resistant to try other methods. ;)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby furever_pit » November 6th, 2010, 7:42 pm

I have found that there has been a HUGE opening up to training with a clicker or a marker from protection sport trainers in the last year or so. Training the foundation with a clicker or marker is quite common now and many people do it, whether with food or with toys. I have been to a number of training seminars that have incorporated the method into developing a strong obedience foundation. The dialog is definitely there. It's just that this is a group of people who still recognize the value of a well-timed correction and aren't willing to throw the baby out with the bath water.

So resistant, probably...but you can't say that that the methodology is not being considered or incorporated into a number of people's programs.
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 7th, 2010, 9:40 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6XIhwBoaik

Another video I found...a clicker training schutzhund club...:) All breed (look for the bullies!)
What fun!

And no, I'm not saying that their dogs are working better or worse than traditionally trained dogs...honestly, I don't think you can really see a difference. ;) But that's what's so cool!
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » November 7th, 2010, 9:56 am

I really like that video - they showed more of the protection than most other clicker trainers do. I especially like that they showed outs - very clean and crisp outs after very enthusiastic bites. I'd love to see more of their stuff!
"Remember - every time your dog gets somewhere on a tight leash *a fairy dies and it's all your fault.* Think of the fairies." http://www.positivepetzine.com"

http://www.pitbullzen.com
http://inaradog.wordpress.com
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 7th, 2010, 11:11 am

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I really like that video - they showed more of the protection than most other clicker trainers do. I especially like that they showed outs - very clean and crisp outs after very enthusiastic bites. I'd love to see more of their stuff!


Yup, I'm with ya...I just stumbled across their video this morning...I'll have to get in touch with them and see if they have more stuff. :)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » November 7th, 2010, 11:30 am

furever_pit wrote:For a lot of people involved in protection sports it is largely about proving a dog's worth, proving a bloodline, testing what you have at the end of your leash and if or how it can be used to produce even better working dogs. It's not just about going through the motions and completing a desired behavior, it is about power, presence, attitude, and the ability to keep coming through stress, pressure, and threats from the decoy. Using corrections from both the handler and the decoy will tell you a lot about your dog, that's part of the value of them.


Getting a bit off-topic here...
I gotta address this part...I forgot to do so the other day, so I'm coming back.

Here's my problem with this paragraph. I agree that protection trained dogs don't "go through the motions" when they're out on the field. But what I see in real life with these dogs (on the whole...and no, I'm not talking about anyone's dogs in particular), is a whole lot different than what I see on the field. I see dogs that are majorly dog-aggressive and can't be controlled, I see/hear..."oh, he's handler aggressive", "he'll come up the leash at you", etc. :neutral: I know that you mentioned not allowing your dog near babies. I just don't understand why these dogs don't seem more, well, "well-rounded", if they're supposedly supposed to be able to handle such pressure/power from decoys and work through stress/obstacles/etc. That's why I brought up Assistance Dogs earlier, as having probably the hardest jobs I know in the dog world...having to deal with all the sh*t that the world at large throws at them. :P

I'm not knocking protection sports, or the people that train them...I think they're a lot of fun too...you should have seen John's Sawyer (Service Dog) biting the decoy/sleeve at the DSO this past summer...(my Xander loved it too). If we had more time/money/energy...I'd consider getting into it more. But I have to say, it's hard for me to swallow that we want to continue bloodlines that are handler aggressive, or can't be around small children.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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