I have a baby problem

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Postby Rolex+Deebo » October 17th, 2010, 1:00 am

OK,
Tonight was the first time Ziva saw a baby(9mo).
And she was obsessed. She fixated on it, and wined the whole time.
She has been around kids, but all have been 3 ft tall or taller.
When the baby was brought closer, she licked the hands, and was good, but was trying to jump and get to the face the whole time, which I was not allowing. As soon as the baby was out of reach, she was whining, and if the baby was moved quick, or started walking, she would try to jump on him. I kept her at a VERY safe distance.
She was very fixated, and obsessed about it.
So how do I make her better about the babies, because if I saw a dog look at my kid the way she was looking at that baby I wouldn't go near it.
I dont know what to do. :(
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Postby DemoDick » October 17th, 2010, 10:25 am

Whatever you do, don't punish the behavior. You can create conflict which you definitely want to avoid. Keep the dog away from babies for now. I'm sure Erin can give you some pointers as to how to deal with this using rewards.

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Postby mnp13 » October 17th, 2010, 10:36 am

Under no circumstances punish her in any manner when there is a baby around. Even if you use corrections normally (which I obviously think is fine) this is a fine line, and one which Riggs' former owners did 100,000% wrong. And we have had some not-nice experiences because of it, I have not been able to fix it because I don't have access to kids on a consistent basis, though when I have, he's made huge progress.

If you have access to a baby consistently, there are lots of things you can do to get her used to their weird movements, smells and sounds. If you are going to only rarely have access to one, then I would just keep her away and work on obedience with heavy distractions so that a baby is just another distraction.
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Postby Rolex+Deebo » October 17th, 2010, 11:33 am

unfortunately I do not have a baby on hand. lol
This baby was BFs friends baby, and they never come out. (first time I met them)
I dont like kids, so im not around them much. And have no friends with them.
So just work on distractions?
She wasn't being aggressive, just very intense.
Lots of licking, but trying to get to the face the whole time.
Maybe I can pay them to come and spend some time. Like "rent a baby" lmao
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Scahill's Goddess Of Light CGC TDI ~aka~ Ziva

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Postby Rolex+Deebo » October 17th, 2010, 11:39 am

oh, and
So if not to do any punishing,
How do I let her know that jumping at the baby, fixating/staring,whining,... is not ok?
Just work on a good leave it? With lots a positives?
And how do I, at the same time make the baby a "good" thing to be calm about?
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Deebo ~aka~ Slobber Monkey
Scahill's Goddess Of Light CGC TDI ~aka~ Ziva

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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 17th, 2010, 1:26 pm

Honestly, Inara is never really around babies so she acts crazy too - she wants nothing more than to knock them over and lick them, but needless to say that's inappropriate.

You have a couple options:
1. If you want to work on it, find some friends with babies that are willing to just hang around while you start at a distance and play "open bar/closed bar" - if the baby is in Ziva's sight, she gets tons of treats, when the baby goes out of sight, the treats stop. You'll eventually move closer and closer. This is changing her Conditioned Emotional Response (CER) to "yay for babies! Babies mean treats!" Just make sure you start at a distance where she is NOT yet acting stupid.
2. Manage her when their are babies around. Either crate her, put her in another room, or keep her on leash (all while chewing on stuffed Kong) when babies are around. This is the option I choose because I don't have enough friends with babies (and, quite frankly, I don't like babies and don't want to be around them) so it's not enough of a problem for me to work on.

Good luck!
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Postby amalie79 » October 17th, 2010, 2:52 pm

Robin is terrified of babies-- they are tiny monsters that strangers carry around-- and small children-- they are eye level, stare, and make sudden movements. She barks and jumps backward and forward like she does with anything that frightens her; I guess the good part is that she keeps her distance and makes it loud and clear that she's concerned. The last time someone brought a baby over, it was unexpected. The person holding the baby gave Robin treats, and I played some look at that games from a distance. It's how we handle all scaredy pup behavior now. Teaching look at that might be useful-- gives the opportunity to engage with distance.
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Postby Rolex+Deebo » October 17th, 2010, 3:31 pm

The problem with a "look at that" game, is that I cant get her to look away! LOL
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Postby amalie79 » October 17th, 2010, 4:02 pm

Rolex+Deebo wrote:The problem with a "look at that" game, is that I cant get her to look away! LOL


lol
Robin gets that way sometimes, too. But she's rarely so fixated that she won't take the treat, so she continues to get that great association of yummy food with whatever she's checking out.

Every time she perks up and stares at someone, my inner eyes roll and I think, "Great. Now these people think the killer pit bull is staring them down." When in reality, if I let her off leash (which of course I wouldn't do), she'd run about halfway there, think better of it and start backing away barking. She's scared of everything. Today we had a hard time crossing a foot path with metal grates next to it. :crazy2:
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Postby furever_pit » October 17th, 2010, 4:13 pm

I'm not really one for babies either so it's not something I have worked on with my dogs a whole lot. Dylan is the only one I have really worked on this with and it was after we had already done a lot of distraction training so it was relatively easy for him. I always started by putting Dylan in a down and showing him that babies and young children could come to him but that he wasn't allowed to get up or to follow them around. I did this because my biggest concern with him is that he will knock the little ones over. I rewarded Dylan with praise and some food for holding his position. I also used his "watch me" command when he got overly interested in the babies. I would still not trust Dylan around a baby off lead. Not that I think he would do anything to harm the baby on purpose, but crap happens sometimes.

I have one dog here, Cairo, who I won't even work on this with. It just doesn't seem worth the effort to me. The dog is extremely driven and a little thing like a baby moving around and making weird noises would throw him over the edge. He is not the kind of dog that I want to correct for expressing his drives so I would either put him in his crate or in an outdoor run while a baby was around. Guess I just pick and choose my battles.
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Postby mnp13 » October 17th, 2010, 4:36 pm

I think it's a mistake not to work on it actually. We work with Riggs every time we have an opportunity, it's just that we don't have that many of them. And unfortunately, what I was told to do at first was very counter productive with him.

The only children he is around regularly (monthly, if that) are family members, and I have strict control over their behavior and Riggs'. When I don't, he is crated. If I had more contact with them, we'd work on it more.

The problem with kids is they don't listen by their fundamental nature, the dog you tell them to not touch and stay away from is the dog they want to follow around. If we were to ever have kids, we'd be fixing the problem, because the alternative isn't one.
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Postby Marinepits » October 17th, 2010, 4:49 pm

Katy was obsessed with babies and toddlers for her entire life -- she would follow them around and be as close as physically possible to them and lick/"clean" them all the time, just as if they were puppies. Occasionally, she would get to be a little too much with the licking and we'd just get her to back off by telling her "no" and she'd calm down.

She'd also watch them like a hawk. A friend brought her 10 month old boy over and he was crawling EVERYWHERE. Any time he'd approach either the top of the stairs or the woodstove (which wasn't on at the time), she would place her body in between him and the stairs or stove and gently maneuver him away from them. It was amazing to watch. She also did the same with my nieces when they were that young.

She would treat most puppies the same way, up until they got to be around 6 months old. Then she'd have no tolerance for puppy shenanigans.
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Postby furever_pit » October 17th, 2010, 5:08 pm

mnp13 wrote:I think it's a mistake not to work on it actually.


I think whether or not you work on it has a lot to do with the individual dog, your goals for the dog, the dog's age, and it's training and developmental phase.
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Postby mnp13 » October 17th, 2010, 5:28 pm

furever_pit wrote:I think whether or not you work on it has a lot to do with the individual dog, your goals for the dog, the dog's age, and it's training and developmental phase.


Well, let me relate this story: Last weekend I stayed in a hotel with Riggs, Matt and Earl. The elevator doors opened at our floor and a family started to get into the elevator as Matt and Earl stepped off. I tried to make it past them with Riggs. The young girl, probably about 5 years old, screeched "A Pit Bull" and launched herself at him to pet him. Her parents just stood there, I was horrified and kept moving. Wanting to scream at the parents to keep their damn kid under control, wanting to tell the girl how great it was that she knew what Pit Bulls were, but that she couldn't pet this one, and wanting Riggs to continue to try to sniff Earl's butt. Hell, I would have let him try to have a taste test at that moment, if for no other reason to than to keep his mind off of a strange kid mauling him from behind.

Though our work with kids is sporadic, having a dog that can't deal with them is just plain dangerous. And since I own one, I can say that with just a "bit" of experience. There was a time that her simple presence at the doors of the elevator would have caused an immediate negative reaction from him. And her touching him? I shudder to think.

You can not control all situations, and people do really stupid stuff around dogs. They let their kids do even dumber stuff. I've had kids run up to Ruby in parking lots out of nowhere, no parent in immediate evidence. People are idiots, but that won't excuse a disaster.
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Postby iluvk9 » October 17th, 2010, 6:09 pm

All I want to know Michelle, was.... did you see Matt naked? :)
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 17th, 2010, 6:15 pm

Rolex+Deebo wrote:The problem with a "look at that" game, is that I cant get her to look away! LOL


Then you're too close. :wink:
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Postby furever_pit » October 17th, 2010, 6:28 pm

This dog is controlled around young children, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about babies, which I read as infants. Two very different stimuli there. Babies cry like prey and even move like disabled prey. Many dogs are going to react to a baby differently than they will even a toddler.

Regardless, I am not going to cap a young sport dog's drives over an infant. The dog will continue to be put away until he has matured and the foundation obedience has been thoroughly established.
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Postby mnp13 » October 17th, 2010, 6:32 pm

iluvk9 wrote:All I want to know Michelle, was.... did you see Matt naked? :)


All I will respond is... if I answer do you think I will get in trouble? lmao
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Postby DemoDick » October 17th, 2010, 6:37 pm

furever_pit wrote:This dog is controlled around young children, but that's not what we are talking about here. We are talking about babies, which I read as infants. Two very different stimuli there. Babies cry like prey and even move like disabled prey. Many dogs are going to react to a baby differently than they will even a toddler.

Regardless, I am not going to cap a young sport dog's drives over an infant. The dog will continue to be put away until he has matured and the foundation obedience has been thoroughly established.


That's pretty silly. Babies move like babies, not prey. I have yet to see an infant dart about like a squirrel.

This "capping drives" stuff is taken way too literally. Teaching a dog basic manners and expectations of behavior is not going to diminish its drive for work unless the dog is a real limp noodle to begin with.

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Postby Rolex+Deebo » October 17th, 2010, 10:24 pm

I want her to be good around babies, cuz if Im going to do any therapy work, I bet I will encounter a baby or two. And the "lion stalking pray" look she got when she saw the baby was not very therapeutic. :|
She gets the same look when she sees a new dog. Never reacts aggressively, just fixates, and then says hi, and then she ignores them. I just need to fix the "fixate stare" because not only does it freak out other dogs, but it freaks out the owners and babies parents.
When I say baby, I am talking about 2yo and younger.
What seemed to get her about the baby is the fact that they carried him. And then all the noises he was making because he was about as exited about her as she was about him. It was very cute, he was all smiles and squeals. And when she licked his hands, he was in heaven. Then she planted a good wet one on his chin, he got all :shock: for a sec, and then started laughing hysterically. As much as I am so not a fan of babies or kids, he was a cutie.

pitbullmamaliz wrote:
Rolex+Deebo wrote:The problem with a "look at that" game, is that I cant get her to look away! LOL


Then you're too close. :wink:


Well, let me just say that THAT might be a problem then, because the baby went across the street, and two houses down, to the other houses driveway, and she was sitting as far as the lead would let her, whining pathetically, and staring at the baby. :doh: So we would then be talking very far.
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