Pit bull fatally shot at DC festival

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Postby DemoDick » September 21st, 2010, 4:16 pm

amazincc wrote:
maberi wrote:Not sure if this was posted but the official police report is available http://www.luckydoganimalrescue.org/an- ... n-parrot/2

Unless I read it incorrectly it appears the police officer involved was a canine handler (does that mean police K9 officer Demo?) and was bitten on the hand and wrist.


The police report contradicts itself... Page 1... type of injury... scratching to hand and wrist.
Page 2... bitten on the hand and wrist. Refused medical attention. :|


Not necessarily a contradiction. If the text indicates that the officer received a bite, the type of injury could still be described as an "abrasion" or "scratch" as opposed to what we would normally expect to see, i.e. a "puncture". Also, you should consider that many of the various front pages in use around the country have "forced responses" for injury types. So "scratch" may very well have been the best option among the list of ones available.

(And, please. don't anyone smack me for pointing this out, but - if you're going to put this out in public for all the world to see... do a spell check first. :shock: :o )


Yeah, that reflects poorly.

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Postby DemoDick » September 21st, 2010, 4:17 pm

maberi wrote:Not sure if this was posted but the official police report is available http://www.luckydoganimalrescue.org/an- ... n-parrot/2

Unless I read it incorrectly it appears the police officer involved was a canine handler (does that mean police K9 officer Demo?) and was bitten on the hand and wrist.


That would be reasonable to assume.

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Postby airwalk » September 22nd, 2010, 9:24 am

The problem is that no one who has responded to this thread with a negative opinion of what the Officer did is in any way qualified to decide what a good shoot is.


This precise attitude is why I rarely bother trying to speak with you anymore.
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Postby DemoDick » September 27th, 2010, 4:27 pm

airwalk wrote:
The problem is that no one who has responded to this thread with a negative opinion of what the Officer did is in any way qualified to decide what a good shoot is.


This precise attitude is why I rarely bother trying to speak with you anymore.


Works for me.

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Postby TheRedQueen » October 3rd, 2010, 9:49 am

Guess this happened TWICE in FL in the month of September also...(police-dog shootings). Good article about the topic, so I figured I'd post it here.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafe ... ed/1125700

Untrained in animal control, police pull guns when attacked
By Jamal Thalji, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Sunday, October 3, 2010

Three dogs were shot dead by law enforcement officers in two separate incidents in September. Shock and condemnation followed, along with questions:

Did the officers really have to kill the dogs? Couldn't they have used other weapons, like Tasers or pepper spray? Was pulling the trigger their only choice?

Yes, both officers said. In each case, they justified using deadly force because they feared for their lives and the lives of others. It's their mission to protect human life first.

But there's also this: Most street-level officers in Florida receive no training or tools to help them deal with animals.

It is not taught at the state's police academies. Tampa Bay's major law enforcement agencies don't offer training, either. And police say their nonlethal arsenal doesn't work so well on animals.

So why not arm those officers with the right training and tools, animal advocates say, to prevent future deadly encounters?

"Any occupation that puts you in someone's home means you have a one in three chance of encountering a dog," said Randall Lockwood of the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals. "We feel that police should have training to recognize the conditions that put them at risk and teach them the appropriate level of force."

But law enforcement says they don't need that training. They rely on animal control experts who have it. Besides, police say, their hands are already full dealing with humans.

"We are not animal control officers," said St. Petersburg police spokesman Bill Proffitt.

• • •

Law enforcement agencies allow their officers to use deadly force to defend themselves and others from "death or serious injury," as the St. Petersburg Police Department policy puts it.

That also applies to a "dangerous animal," the policy reads. The officers in last month's shootings say that's exactly what they faced:

St. Petersburg police Officer Slobodan Juric killed two leashed dogs on Sept. 12 after they attacked an unleashed, elderly blind dog and were about to turn on him and others, police said.

Pinellas County sheriff's Deputy William White shot dead a stray on Sept. 26 that deputies said had already bitten one person, evaded capture, ran loose on U.S. 19 and was about to pounce on an animal control officer.

The owners of the dogs killed in St. Petersburg were especially incensed because their dogs were on leashes. But the owner of the unleashed dog said at least one of them had sunk its teeth into his pet during the melee and wasn't letting go.

Both officers went right back to work afterward. The shootings are still under investigation.

• • •

Rick Chaboudy, founder and president of the Suncoast Animal League in Palm Harbor, has been in the animal rescue field for 26 years. He's captured thousands of strays.

It's impossible to judge what the officers faced last month, he said, considering those dogs were already on the attack.

"Anytime that you have a dog that's already made an attack, whether on a human being or another animal, that wild instinct kicks in," Chaboudy said. "That's where the danger is."

The key, he said, is control:

"Most dogs have no intention of harming anybody. They're just scared out of their minds. You have to go in and control them."

He said doing that takes training and some equipment: a metal animal control pole with a loop to grab the dog's neck and bite-proof gloves. Total cost: up to $200.

But the vast majority of officers on the streets of Tampa Bay and Florida don't have that equipment or the training to use it.

• • •

The curriculum of Florida's police academies is set by the state. It included some animal training until 2004, then it was dropped.

Officials didn't think officers encountered animals often enough to justify it. "You just can't teach everything for a lot of reasons, including resources," said Dwight Floyd, bureau chief of training for the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.

What about nonlethal devices? St. Petersburg police Sgt. Tim Brockman said they work better on humans than animals.

Using a Taser on an attacking dog is discouraged because they only work if both probes hit the target. The animals might be too small and fast to hit. Pepper spray can be effective but the department doesn't consider it reliable enough to recommend.

That's why police agencies say they rely on animal control specialists. Dealing with animals isn't in their job description.

"Every officer is eminently trained to use their firearms," Proffitt said. "But we're not trained to trap alligators or deal with dangerous animals."

Only those in specialized fields get animal training, like canine handlers and agricultural deputies.

But Lockwood, a senior vice president at the ASPCA, believes all officers should learn how to better handle dogs. Training could keep them from having to draw their firearms on aggressive dogs.

"If you understand dog behavior, if you know how to gain control of the situation," he said, "there's usually going to be alternatives to lethal force in a potentially dangerous dog situation."

He also disagreed on the use of pepper spray. He said federal studies show it works very well, but that it's confused with tear gas, which doesn't work.

Another good tool, he said, is one every patrol officer already has on the duty belt: a collapsible metal baton.

"The simple act of snapping the baton open causes the majority of dogs to back off," he said.

• • •

Chaboudy sees another reason for more police training: It may become a necessity. Budget cuts and a bad economy could end up sapping police of public and nonprofit animal services, he said.

SPCA Tampa Bay told the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office that as of Sept. 23 it is no longer able to provide many of the animal care services it used to offer to law enforcement.

That's why sheriff's spokesman Marianne Pasha said her agency is studying whether its deputies should be trained to deal with animals on their own. "Due to cutbacks, we really need to look into that," she said.

The state also is considering whether to add animal training in 2012. In the latest statewide survey of officers, many say they're increasingly forced to deal with animals.

For now, officers can still call animal control for help. But Chaboudy can see a future where officers could lose that backup. "There might not be anybody out there to help them," he said. "They'll be on their own."


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Copyright 2010 St. Petersburg Times

"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 3rd, 2010, 10:48 am

We're not trained to deal with dogs and a couple of my coworkers have had to shoot dogs. They specifically tell us NOT to try our pepper spray because it won't work.
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Postby mnp13 » October 3rd, 2010, 11:32 pm

But Lockwood, a senior vice president at the ASPCA, believes all officers should learn how to better handle dogs. Training could keep them from having to draw their firearms on aggressive dogs.

"If you understand dog behavior, if you know how to gain control of the situation," he said, "there's usually going to be alternatives to lethal force in a potentially dangerous dog situation."

He also disagreed on the use of pepper spray. He said federal studies show it works very well, but that it's confused with tear gas, which doesn't work.

Another good tool, he said, is one every patrol officer already has on the duty belt: a collapsible metal baton.

"The simple act of snapping the baton open causes the majority of dogs to back off," he said.


This guy is welcome to come to the DSO and try that out. I'd be willing to bet cold hard cash that the "simple act of snapping the baton open" wouldn't bother most of the obedience dogs, let alone the protection dogs. And yes, I know we're not talking about trained dogs in this thread, but hear me out...

When a dog means business pepper spray will make them madder. I guarantee you that if you spray either my dog or Demo's dog with pepper spray or taser them, you will be a hurting individual in short order. Will many dogs run? Sure, but the problem is, some won't... and those some will be coming at you to share in the pain that you just gave them.

As for the baton, you have to be within arms reach to use it, and quite frankly, most people don't want to beat a dog to death. And if you don't drop it at the first blow, and it doesn't run off after the first blow, you again have a dog that is now going ready to give back as good as it gets. And sure, you are going to win, but you're going to win with a few holes in you...

And what federal study has been done on dogs and pepper spray???
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 4th, 2010, 12:03 am

But...wouldn't *trying* a non-lethal method first be the best idea...if the dog isn't attacking a person at the time? You can always whip out your gun and shoot it after it shakes off the pepper spray. ;)

Will all of these suggestions work on EVERY dog in EVERY situation? No, of course not. I think the idea is that they should have training so the PO's first response is not to use their gun. :| If an ACO is called out, they don't just pull out a gun and shoot the dog first.
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Postby mnp13 » October 4th, 2010, 2:01 am

TheRedQueen wrote:But...wouldn't *trying* a non-lethal method first be the best idea...if the dog isn't attacking a person at the time? You can always whip out your gun and shoot it after it shakes off the pepper spray. ;)

Not really, because if you just gave it a face full of pepper spray, you have about half a second to get that gun out, aim and fire... all while that very angry dog is on the way to eat you for spraying it.

http://www.flra.gov/fsip/finalact/98fs_158.html
By way of background, the OC spray device selected for use by the Employer is the "CAP-STUN Weapon System" (CAP-STUN) manufactured by ZARC International, Inc., of Bethesda, Maryland. It uses an aerosol delivery system that disperses the OC in a conical mist and can deliver six 1-second bursts.(8) The device is most effective at distances of 4 to 6 feet, has a maximum range of 15 feet under ideal conditions, and should not be used at a range of under 3 feet

So, if an officer sprayed a dog under ideal conditions, it might be 15 feet away. So that officer would need to drop the cap stun, unholster their gun, aim and fire - all while that dog is closing the distance of 15 feet? But more likely, the distance would be 4 or 6 feet. Even stubby little Riggs can cover 6 feet in one jump, maybe two. So even if that officer is running backwards while trying to unholster and aim (uh... ) well, this is just not a recipe for a good shot.


Will all of these suggestions work on EVERY dog in EVERY situation? No, of course not. I think the idea is that they should have training so the PO's first response is not to use their gun. :| If an ACO is called out, they don't just pull out a gun and shoot the dog first.

No, and an ACO is not a Police Officer. I don't expect them to act the same. Honestly, I don't think it would be a bad idea for all officers to have tranq darts for their shot guns. Go to a dog call, load them, and if necessary, shoot the dog with that. Could it happen that the dog still dies from an OD of tranqualizer? Yes, but at least it's an attempt to not kill. And some of the tranq's act fast enough to stop just about anything in seconds.

Look, I'm not advocating killing dogs. But quite frankly, I'm even less interested in having Demo come home missing chunks - and that has nearly happened more than once. I'd love it if there was a way for dogs not to pay for idiot owners, but right now, there isn't... and that's because if they try to not kill the dog (tranq gun) and one dies by mistake then people sue the city. It's completely stupid.

And no matter how the news makes it seem, I've met a lot of officers, and regardless of their "routine", none of them "like" shooting dogs. A "justified shooting" just means that it was necessary under the law, not that they thought it was fun to do and went out and had a party later.
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Postby TheRedQueen » October 4th, 2010, 8:28 am

And no matter how the news makes it seem, I've met a lot of officers, and regardless of their "routine", none of them "like" shooting dogs. A "justified shooting" just means that it was necessary under the law, not that they thought it was fun to do and went out and had a party later.


Yeah, because that's exactly what I was thinking they did... :rolleyes2:

Is it really TOO much to ask that officers get some sort of training with dogs...at least so they can read true intentions before pulling out a gun? I think most everyone here knows that I'm not overly emotional about dogs being killed for a good reason...to put it bluntly. :neutral: I'm not getting all weepy over the idea of attacking dogs getting shot. I just think it's stupid to not have training for things you're going to encounter on the job. I'm not going to continue discussing the merits of non-lethal methods, because I just don't know enough. But you can't tell me that there are NO ways to deal with an attacking dog (and I'm not just saying it's a dog rushing at you...we're talking two fighting dogs that might take a chunk out of a wrist when you try and pull them apart).

I think the author has a point, that with more budget cuts, and a lack of ACOs...POs are gonna have to deal with more...it just seems like a good idea for them to have a tiny bit more training...not only to keep from killing a dog, but to keep from getting hurt themselves. :|
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby airwalk » October 4th, 2010, 9:36 am

TheRedQueen wrote::| If an ACO is called out, they don't just pull out a gun and shoot the dog first.



Yep I'm pretty sure we've never shot a dog. We've been called out to handle dogs our LEO couldn't or didn't..but nope shooting them isn't an option..nor is walking away (before anyone says that's an option).
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Postby mnp13 » October 4th, 2010, 10:07 am

TheRedQueen wrote:
And no matter how the news makes it seem, I've met a lot of officers, and regardless of their "routine", none of them "like" shooting dogs. A "justified shooting" just means that it was necessary under the law, not that they thought it was fun to do and went out and had a party later.


Yeah, because that's exactly what I was thinking they did... :rolleyes2:

I didn't say that you did (or mean to imply that you did either). But the prevailing attitude in the news stories and from some of the reports is that the officers are rather flip about it .

Is it really TOO much to ask that officers get some sort of training with dogs...at least so they can read true intentions before pulling out a gun? I think most everyone here knows that I'm not overly emotional about dogs being killed for a good reason...to put it bluntly. :neutral: I'm not getting all weepy over the idea of attacking dogs getting shot. I just think it's stupid to not have training for things you're going to encounter on the job.

Police officers are people control not dog dog control quite frankly. I agree that training would be helpful, and I think they should do some for the simple fact that it would keep officers safer. But think about it, even experienced trainers mis-read dogs, in calm situations.

I'm not going to continue discussing the merits of non-lethal methods, because I just don't know enough.

The problem is, non-leathel methods are painful. Pepper spray, tazer etc are the ones you hear about the most often, and those are horribly painful. The work for people because while the person is getting them - or being threatened with them - the officer can talk to the offender. Once the dog is in pain, all the dog knows is pain. Most dogs will run, but the ones that don't are the ones that could then injure or kill that officer.

But you can't tell me that there are NO ways to deal with an attacking dog (and I'm not just saying it's a dog rushing at you...we're talking two fighting dogs that might take a chunk out of a wrist when you try and pull them apart).

Well, I've dealt with that. You probably have as well. :| So we both know it's plenty possible.

I think the author has a point, that with more budget cuts, and a lack of ACOs...POs are gonna have to deal with more...it just seems like a good idea for them to have a tiny bit more training...not only to keep from killing a dog, but to keep from getting hurt themselves. :|

I agree, but at some point, the accountability has to go up.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » October 4th, 2010, 12:16 pm

I WISH my job would supply some sort of training for dealing with dogs, but money is so freakin' tight they're cutting back on trainings. We used to do firearms and unarmed self-defense quarterly. Now, we get EIGHT HOURS of firearms per year. 8 hours PER YEAR. And unarmed self-defense is I believe 16 hours per year. It blows my mind. So when jobs are cutting back on truly essential trainings like that, there's a not a chance in hell they have any cares about teaching people to read dogs.

I wish it were different.
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Postby DemoDick » October 11th, 2010, 10:41 am

The definition of a deadly physical force situation is one in which less-lethal countermeasures are by definition inadequate. Advocating the use of pepper spray, Tasers, etc. on an attacking dog is like advocating the use of those same tools to control an armed human suspect.

In an ideal world we would have phasers on stun and they would always work. We do not live or work in an ideal world. The reality of the situation is that we are going to have to shoot dogs (and people) on occasion to get our job done and come home in one piece.

In my department Officers are typically dispatched to aggressive dog calls before ACO's and if an ACO arrives on scene with one they will call for us to back them up. Only a fool would try to control a truly dangerous dog in a real world environment without a deadly physical force option as backup in case Plan A doesn't work.

As to training, perception is reality. It is an acute understanding of this tenet of law enforcement that has made it possible for me to sit here and post this today instead of rotting in the ground.

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