Pit bull fatally shot at DC festival

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Postby DemoDick » September 20th, 2010, 4:33 pm

HappyChick wrote:I stand by my statement. No, I was not there either, but IF the accounting that I read IS true, it's disgusting. Regardless of who is faulted, it is sad and you can bet human error is the cause.

BTW, I didn't think I read a "media" account. I thought what I read was written up by the rescue and posted on the rescue's website. Wouldn't that be kind of like me writing up a description of an incident and posting it on my website?


Stand by it all you want. It's still wrong and indefensible.

A cursory view of the material available about this incident feature multiple statements from people who were there that contradict each other. So the people who were on scene can't agree about what happened. Yet, you somehow know the truth based on what you read on the rescue's (obvioulsy unbiased :rolleyes2:) website? Ridiculous.

This is why I hope I am never at the mercy of 12 people not smart enough to get out of jury duty.

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Postby madremissy » September 20th, 2010, 5:00 pm

Is it so hard for you to say that this officer could have done something like this? Why do you have to act so rightous sometimes. :nono: Yes, nobody knows for sure exactly what happened but you don't have to be so defensive when you don't know exactly what happened either. Everyone is entitled to their opinions without making to feel like they are wrong. Just my two cents. My husband was in law enforcemet for years and my son-in-law is in it now. I can say that there are some good ones and there are some bad ones. I have seen it first hand. That is all I have to say about this.
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Postby DemoDick » September 20th, 2010, 5:14 pm

madremissy wrote:Is it so hard for you to say that this officer could have done something like this? Why do you have to act so rightous sometimes. :nono: Yes, nobody knows for sure exactly what happened but you don't have to be so defensive when you don't know exactly what happened either. Everyone is entitled to their opinions without making to feel like they are wrong. Just my two cents. My husband was in law enforcemet for years and my son-in-law is in it now. I can say that there are some good ones and there are some bad ones. I have seen it first hand. That is all I have to say about this.


If and when your son in law uses his firearm and gets raked over the coals by people who (1) weren't there, (2) have no idea what it's like to make a split-second life or death decisions and (3) have no training in the use of force you'd better not have anything to say to them. Because after all, "everyone is entitled to their opinion," even if it means your son losing his job and his pension.

Now go back and find anything, repeat ANYTHING that I have written that defends anything that this Officer did. I'll be waiting.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
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Postby amazincc » September 20th, 2010, 6:04 pm

DemoDick wrote:
You did misunderstand. I wasn't defending his actions at all. I don't know enough about the situation to do so. I was stating that it is weak to condemn him based on the information available.

Demo Dick


In that case I apologize.
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Postby DemoDick » September 20th, 2010, 6:09 pm

amazincc wrote:
DemoDick wrote:
You did misunderstand. I wasn't defending his actions at all. I don't know enough about the situation to do so. I was stating that it is weak to condemn him based on the information available.

Demo Dick


In that case I apologize.


I accept.

Demo Dick
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Postby HappyChick » September 20th, 2010, 6:30 pm

Demo - I never said I knew the truth. Go back and read my posts if you like. I said IF it IS true.

I'm not ridiculous and I might add I AM smart enough to get out of jury duty, twice.

BTW, for what it's worth my dad was a police officer when I was a kid and I was brought up to respect them as PEACE OFFICERS.
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Postby airwalk » September 20th, 2010, 9:30 pm

Just as a starter, my first impression when reading the story was ... 'hmmm why can I bet there is more to this story than has been told...or frankly will ever be told". I wasn't there and yes there are a number of conflicting accounts (which BTW is normal. Eye witnesses actually usually don't make very good witnesses at all).

That said

If and when your son in law uses his firearm and gets raked over the coals by people who (1) weren't there, (2) have no idea what it's like to make a split-second life or death decisions and (3) have no training in the use of force you'd better not have anything to say to them. Because after all, "everyone is entitled to their opinion," even if it means your son losing his job and his pension.


When you choose to put on the badge and carry the gun. You raise your hand in the air and say "pick me" .. you know that you are going to be held to a higher standard. You know that your actions will be reviewed, chewed up, chewed on and spit out by folks that weren't there, have not idea what it is like to make those types of split second life and death decisions and have no training in your area of expertise. You know that, you choose to put on the badge and carry the gun knowing that.

If you do, I do not believe that it carries an automatic right to cry foul when exactly that happens.

This from a Mother of a cop and an ex-wife of a cop...one of which has been in exactly that position.

It is a hazard of the job. Again, I am neither defending or condemning either side. I wasn't there I don't know what happened. That is what a Judge and Jury are to figure out.
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Postby airwalk » September 20th, 2010, 9:31 pm

Oh and I don't get out of jury duty, because I happen to feel it is my duty as a citizen that expects protection under the law.
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Postby call2arms » September 20th, 2010, 9:45 pm

Whatever happened, this sucks.

I wonder exactly how the "scuffle" happened in the first place, usually 2 dogs on leash don't start chewing on each other. There's so much more to this story. And unless a very impartial witness was there and saw everything, neither side will tell the whole story, because each side sees their OWN.
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 20th, 2010, 10:31 pm

call2arms wrote:Whatever happened, this sucks.

I wonder exactly how the "scuffle" happened in the first place, usually 2 dogs on leash don't start chewing on each other. There's so much more to this story. And unless a very impartial witness was there and saw everything, neither side will tell the whole story, because each side sees their OWN.


I was at a pet fair in the DC region earlier this summer...and there was a nasty dog fight that happened in an instant...a small labby type mix and a boxer. The goddamn boxer took the EAR OFF of the mix...in the middle of the crowd. I was the one to jump in and separate the dogs, and to put pressure on the ear to staunch the spurting blood. So yeah, these types of things happen quickly with idiot owners. :sad2:

But...despite the owner of the boxer standing nearby with a lunging boxer that was ready for more, no police officer, ACO or anyone else for that matter, hauled the dog around and shot it. :nono:
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Postby amazincc » September 20th, 2010, 10:55 pm

When you choose to put on the badge and carry the gun. You raise your hand in the air and say "pick me" .. you know that you are going to be held to a higher standard.


The same can be - and often IS - expected from Pit Bull owners.

My issue w/that whole story, and other similar ones lately, is the fact that a LOT of rescues and/or Pit Bull advocats have promoted "our breed" to an almost saint-like status, and that bugs the crap out of me, personally.
Pit Bulls are dogs, first and foremost. Dogs have teeth. Dogs can be unpredictable, and sometimes dangerous... depending on the dog AND the situation.
On any given day you can read a billion posts regarding Pit Bulls on FB... from the lovers AND the haters. Reasonable and realistic views are far and in-between, and God help you if you venture into that middle ground - you get your arse handed to you from both sides.
It's either "vicious baby-killers" and "run for your lives" or "my Pit Bull cooks, cleans, babysits the infant grand daughter and wouldn't hurt a fly, never, never, ever"... uhm... WHAT???
The ones I love the most though are "it's not the dog - it's the owner" or the ever infamous "it's all in how you raise them"... EXCUSE me???

I ADORE my boys w/all my heart. I *think* I have done a pretty good job w/them so far. I trust them, for the most part. They won't eat anyones baby, they won't attack you because they eat RAW and have "a taste for blood", and in normal circumstances their behaviors are predictable and safe. Do I think that they are above and beyond reproach in any and all situations 150% of the time? Hell no.
If that makes me a *bad* owner... well... so be it. I like to err on the side of caution, because I realize that - despite the funny and cute pics I post, and despite the baby talk and humanization I'm guilty of at times - those boys are DOGS. PIT BULL dogs, at that.
I don't expect to be able to "reason" w/them when it comes to scary situations... hell, I don't even always know WHAT scares them, or WHY they do the things they do. I'm not a dog. I don't see the world the way they do.
I do know most of their limitations though... because I observe them constantly, and because past experiences are a fantastic learning tool.
Would I bring Sepp to a crowded, noisy festival, for instance, and expect him to be a model citizen, no matter what? Absolutely NEVER.

So. my problem w/that whole story is that the rescue will probably no sooner admit that the dog might *possibly* have had some aggression/fear/whatever issues than the PO department will admit that the officer in question might *possibly* have acted irrationally... it's all about perception and "where you stand", when it comes right down to it.
Most dog lovers will be up in arms about an unjustified shooting, and most POs will side w/"their own". That's human nature...
This being a rescue-oriented Pit Bull forum... enough said. :|

I'm sure the truth lies somewhere in the middle, but human error (either the handlers OR the officers... or even both) led to a death... and that is, in and of itself, a tragic outcome.
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Postby airwalk » September 20th, 2010, 11:09 pm

Christine I totally agree. There are always three side to every story...one side, the other and then the truth.

I cannot judge anyone involved in the situation because I was not there and have no clue what happened, what could or could not have been avoided.
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Postby DemoDick » September 21st, 2010, 12:36 pm

airwalk wrote:When you choose to put on the badge and carry the gun. You raise your hand in the air and say "pick me" .. you know that you are going to be held to a higher standard. You know that your actions will be reviewed, chewed up, chewed on and spit out by folks that weren't there, have not idea what it is like to make those types of split second life and death decisions and have no training in your area of expertise. You know that, you choose to put on the badge and carry the gun knowing that.


So of course it follows that when a cop gets slandered, libeled, and possibly even jailed for a righteous shoot we should all just shut our mouths, shrug, and say "Well, it comes with the territory?" I don't think so.

If you do, I do not believe that it carries an automatic right to cry foul when exactly that happens.


Horseshit. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Good shoots that get cops fired are WRONG. Period.

Demo Dick
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Postby amazincc » September 21st, 2010, 1:32 pm

DemoDick wrote:Horseshit. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Good shoots that get cops fired are WRONG. Period.
Demo Dick


I don't think anyone disputes that, do we???
Of course it would be wrong to fire a cop who discharged his weapon because there was an apparent threat and/or imminent danger, and an officer was forced to defend himself or others. No question about it.

Did you see the photo of the officer kneeling on top of the dog though? Couldn't have someone just put a leash on the dog, or muzzled him... or something of that nature?
The dog is not that big and he looks pretty "under control" to me, at least at the moment the photo was taken. Would you personally have secured the dog, or tossed him down a set of stairs (which the officer admitted to, by the way) and thereby chanced retaliation by a now very frightened and worked-up animal?
In that photo it also shows a crapload of bystanders, and if the dog had been that out-of-control I'm betting that people would've moved out of reach in one hell of a hurry... at least I would have. :|

Questioning the act of one officer in one particular situation is in no way an attack on POs as a whole; or a personal attack on you, your conduct and integrity, or your job performance - I hope you know that.
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Postby DemoDick » September 21st, 2010, 1:52 pm

amazincc wrote:
DemoDick wrote:Horseshit. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Good shoots that get cops fired are WRONG. Period.
Demo Dick


I don't think anyone disputes that, do we???


The problem is that no one who has responded to this thread with a negative opinion of what the Officer did is in any way qualified to decide what a good shoot is.

Of course it would be wrong to fire a cop who discharged his weapon because there was an apparent threat and/or imminent danger, and an officer was forced to defend himself or others. No question about it.

Did you see the photo of the officer kneeling on top of the dog though? Couldn't have someone just put a leash on the dog, or muzzled him... or something of that nature?


This is the whole point..."could have" doesn't enter into the equation. In hindsight there are a million things that anyone "could have" done. What matters is the perception of the officer in that instant. And that is the only criteria by which to judge his actions. That is the legal standard.

The dog is not that big and he looks pretty "under control" to me, at least at the moment the photo was taken. Would you personally have secured the dog, or tossed him down a set of stairs (which the officer admitted to, by the way) and thereby chanced retaliation by a now very frightened and worked-up animal?
In that photo it also shows a crapload of bystanders, and if the dog had been that out-of-control I'm betting that people would've moved out of reach in one hell of a hurry... at least I would have. :|


What I would have done may very well have been different...but I have a unique skill set and a completely different way of looking at things. You cannot judge an Officer's actions based on your own expertise in any one area. You have to judge his actions based on HIS abilities, training, and experience. We have a saying..."perception IS reality".

Let me ask you a question that was recently asked of me. You arrive in uniform in a marked patrol car at a hospital and you see a man carrying a shotgun into the emergency department. You draw your weapon, point it at him and loudly tell him "POLICE, DON'T MOVE!!!" He looks at you briefly, ignores you and starts walking through the door. What do you do? Take at least 2 seconds to make up your mind, because that's how much time you have.

Demo Dick
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Postby mnp13 » September 21st, 2010, 2:19 pm

I'm not going to comment on anything in this thread. However, I would like to relate an interesting conversation that I had recently with someone that does training with officers and witnesses.

This was actually a video recorded exercise.

Officer arrives on scene, draws weapon, shoots suspect twice, then loudly says "Police, stop or I'll shoot." Eye witnesses were then interviewed.

Witnesses, when asked, said that the officer identified himself first, then fired. The witnesses were not lying, because our brains put things in order. Why on earth would anyone say "stop or I'll shoot" after they have already shot???

Just think about that for a minute.

---------------

Do I think anyone is purposefully lying who was at the festival? Yes I do.

Do I think a lot of people are being 100% honest, even though their stories conflict wildly with each other and can't possibly be about the same exact incident? Yes I do.

Perceptions are colored by a million different things. I am not defending the officer or his actions. I am not condemning him either. I won't be doing either.

Personally, if I place blame on anyone, it is always the people who bring their dogs to things like this - because I don't care what breed it is, dogs have no place in giant crowds like this because crap like this always happens, it just rarely makes the news.
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Postby maberi » September 21st, 2010, 3:17 pm

Not sure if this was posted but the official police report is available http://www.luckydoganimalrescue.org/an- ... n-parrot/2

Unless I read it incorrectly it appears the police officer involved was a canine handler (does that mean police K9 officer Demo?) and was bitten on the hand and wrist.
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Postby amazincc » September 21st, 2010, 3:20 pm

mnp13 wrote:Personally, if I place blame on anyone, it is always the people who bring their dogs to things like this - because I don't care what breed it is, dogs have no place in giant crowds like this because crap like this always happens


Well, yeah... that sums it up in a nut shell right there. :neutral:

I wonder if anyone has pointed that out to the rescue or the guy who brought the dog in the first place. Somehow it's always easier to place the blame on someone else entirely.
Common sense and personal responsibility are a "lost art" these days.
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Postby maberi » September 21st, 2010, 3:23 pm

I totally agree with Michelle about bringing dogs to something like this isn't good but they did have a pet area so I can only assume pets were invited. As responsible dog owners we know that is not a good idea but most casual pet owners don't

Also the report indicates a scratch to the office on page 1, page 2 indicates a bite.
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Postby amazincc » September 21st, 2010, 3:41 pm

maberi wrote:Not sure if this was posted but the official police report is available http://www.luckydoganimalrescue.org/an- ... n-parrot/2

Unless I read it incorrectly it appears the police officer involved was a canine handler (does that mean police K9 officer Demo?) and was bitten on the hand and wrist.


The police report contradicts itself... Page 1... type of injury... scratching to hand and wrist.
Page 2... bitten on the hand and wrist. Refused medical attention. :|

Seriously... the logical (and also extremely stubborn) side of me wants to pick this whole story apart, word by word, and point out every little discrepancy I can find.
The more practical side of me however tells me to shut up and leave this topic alone already... lol




(And, please. don't anyone smack me for pointing this out, but - if you're going to put this out in public for all the world to see... do a spell check first. :shock: :o )
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