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Postby Hundilein » September 2nd, 2010, 9:21 pm

A blog article by Susan Garrett about testing cues to see what your dog really knows.

http://susangarrettdogagility.com/2010/ ... -in-a-box/
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 2nd, 2010, 9:42 pm

I saw this, and kept thinking about the DSO...can you do it under a sprinkler? Can you do it while mom wears a bag over her head? lol

We used to do variations on this in puppy class...one game from Kathy Sdao called "Prove It" :)
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Postby Malli » September 2nd, 2010, 11:12 pm

btw, that looked like a lovely attention heal in that picture, did you use the clicker for that? :)
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Postby Ammadien » September 3rd, 2010, 11:30 am

That's a cool idea!

And wow, what beautiful property.

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Postby DemoDick » September 3rd, 2010, 12:34 pm

This is how we always train. Two days ago I was heeling Connor suspended from a playground zip line.

If your dog only heels in straight lines, 90 degree turns, and about turns, he doesn't know heel. Ditto for requiring that the handler be standing, etc.

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Postby mnp13 » September 4th, 2010, 1:07 am

TheRedQueen wrote:I saw this, and kept thinking about the DSO...can you do it under a sprinkler? Can you do it while mom wears a bag over her head?


It was amazing how many dogs had no idea what heel meant when they could no longer see their handler's face. And frankly, until this weekend, I would have bet money on Ruby's sit and down, and yes, we've even trained in water. But holy crap, she sure wasn't amused when that sprinkler turned on! Riggs won't hold his away from me, and I know that, and expect it but Ruby? Her sit and down are the things that I can depend on - not her heel or anything else - but she stays put. Well... no, not really! :mad2: :rolleyes2: :oops: :oops: :oops:
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Postby furever_pit » September 5th, 2010, 7:10 pm

LOL
That video was really cute. Looks like fun.
My favorite was the dog doing positions on the handler. I'll have to play around with that with the boys.

Michelle, in response to your comment on dogs at the DSO not knowing what heel means when the handler had the bag over their head: Did you by any chance notice a correlation between dogs taught to make eye contact when heeling and those dogs that had trouble with heeling when they couldn't see their handler's face? I'm just thinking out loud here...but if I told Dylan "foos" and then put something over my head I think he would have some confusion in the heel. On the other hand, if I gave him the command for a contact heel I doubt it would matter because he wouldn't be looking at me anyway.
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Postby DemoDick » September 5th, 2010, 8:09 pm

furever_pit wrote:LOL
That video was really cute. Looks like fun.
My favorite was the dog doing positions on the handler. I'll have to play around with that with the boys.

Michelle, in response to your comment on dogs at the DSO not knowing what heel means when the handler had the bag over their head: Did you by any chance notice a correlation between dogs taught to make eye contact when heeling and those dogs that had trouble with heeling when they couldn't see their handler's face? I'm just thinking out loud here...but if I told Dylan "foos" and then put something over my head I think he would have some confusion in the heel. On the other hand, if I gave him the command for a contact heel I doubt it would matter because he wouldn't be looking at me anyway.


Michelle is awa y from her computer for the holiday, but I'll respond.

Of course if you teach your dog to stare at your face during an attention heel and then take away his main cue he's going to likely have problems. Complicating this was the fact that every handler who knows how to heel confidently takes the leash and walks with a sureness that simply isn't possible when they are suddenly blinded and led by a decoy. When the body language of the handler radically changes and in effect the handler is beiing heeled by a decoy, and the dog in turn by the handler who is now acting weird and apprehensive due to disorientation and stress, the dog becomes an afterthought and tends to tag along not knowing what he should be doing.

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Postby Hoyden » September 5th, 2010, 8:40 pm

DemoDick wrote:
furever_pit wrote:LOL
That video was really cute. Looks like fun.
My favorite was the dog doing positions on the handler. I'll have to play around with that with the boys.

Michelle, in response to your comment on dogs at the DSO not knowing what heel means when the handler had the bag over their head: Did you by any chance notice a correlation between dogs taught to make eye contact when heeling and those dogs that had trouble with heeling when they couldn't see their handler's face? I'm just thinking out loud here...but if I told Dylan "foos" and then put something over my head I think he would have some confusion in the heel. On the other hand, if I gave him the command for a contact heel I doubt it would matter because he wouldn't be looking at me anyway.


Michelle is awa y from her computer for the holiday, but I'll respond.

Of course if you teach your dog to stare at your face during an attention heel and then take away his main cue he's going to likely have problems. Complicating this was the fact that every handler who knows how to heel confidently takes the leash and walks with a sureness that simply isn't possible when they are suddenly blinded and led by a decoy. When the body language of the handler radically changes and in effect the handler is beiing heeled by a decoy, and the dog in turn by the handler who is now acting weird and apprehensive due to disorientation and stress, the dog becomes an afterthought and tends to tag along not knowing what he should be doing.

Demo Dick



This is kinda interesting for me because there are times when my balance is so off, I stumble like a drunk or I hold onto someone's arm to keep from falling. Birdie will heel irregardless of my body language if given her heel command, which is me slapping my right hand against me thigh or telling her "HERE".

When I was going through radiation, she heeled next to the wheel chair I was being pushed in and next to the gurney I was on WITHOUT any one holding her leash as it was looped into the handle of her service vest. She will also stay right next to me in her heel position without me holding her leash while she shop.

People look at me like I've lost my damned mind when we "play" (work on obedience) in places like the "Splash Pad" at the park with it's spurting water, dumping buckets, "rain", spitting animals, etc...

Thank you for pointing this out. Heeling irregardless of how I move or what is going on around us is something that I am going to have to teach my next service dog, so it's something I need to start thinking about how I want to train him/her to do.
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 5th, 2010, 8:59 pm

I have to say also...it was MUCH harder to heel with The Wiener than it was with my bigger dogs...I couldn't reach down and feel for him, and he wasn't brushing against my leg like the taller dogs did. Liz and I were laughing about how I should have him heeling while I was on my knees!
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Postby mnp13 » September 7th, 2010, 4:33 pm

The decoy was Riggs' downfall. We work on heeling in all sorts of weird positions. I can crawl and he will heel at my shoulder (we started that because of Jailbreak) he will heel if he is over my head height on the dog walk in agility, and lots of other stuff. But with a decoy next to me? Not hardly, that's a forge waiting to happen - as clearly illustrated in all of our pictures. And I knew that going in!

Ruby barely has a heel and does not "generalize" the position like Riggs does.

Did you by any chance notice a correlation between dogs taught to make eye contact when heeling and those dogs that had trouble with heeling when they couldn't see their handler's face? I'm just thinking out loud here...but if I told Dylan "foos" and then put something over my head I think he would have some confusion in the heel. On the other hand, if I gave him the command for a contact heel I doubt it would matter because he wouldn't be looking at me anyway.

I'm not sure, because I don't know which dogs weren't heeling because of that reason specifically.

I'm not sure what you mean by a "contact heel" but regardless, I think you'd be very surprised by how much your dog relies on you for body language for heeling. Ruby does not have an attention heel, but she does have a heel. However, when my body language became erratic and confused, she just stopped paying any attention at all.

and even if you don't use my dogs as examples, dogs who are highly trained and highly titled got very weirded out by being unable to read cues from their handler's face and body language. The command heel didn't matter, even though they clearly "knew" it. They didn't want to be near this weirdly behaving handler.
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Postby furever_pit » September 7th, 2010, 5:29 pm

The contact heel is what I use when training for French Ring. I teach the dogs to touch my left leg with their right shoulder. This way the dog does not have to be looking at me in order to keep their heel. IMO this helps a lot in the DOH where the dog needs to walk backwards next to you. If the dog is looking back and forth from the decoy to the handler (so that they don't lose the heel) then the decoy has an opening during which they can make aggression toward the handler and then be a step or two ahead of the dog in an esquive and thus taking points from the handler/dog team.

I definitely agree that dogs read a lot of cues from our faces and body language that affect how they carry out behaviors. I wouldn't deny that in a million years.
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