The Intrinsic Value of Correction

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby TheRedQueen » August 3rd, 2010, 8:35 am

I'm gonna be busy today...so don't think I'm ignoring this thread...I'm finding it great fun. :D

But here is Steve White's list..."About Punishment". I follow his advice at the end...;) My dogs have enough issues without me adding to them.

Eight Rules for Using Punishment:

1. The punishment must be something the animal dislikes and something the animal does not expect.

2. The punishment must suppress behavior. (This is, in fact, the very definition of something that is a punisher.) If something is being used for punishment, but it does not suppress behavior, it’s ineffective and often just plain abuse.

3. The punishment must be of the perfect intensity. Too much and there will be negative fallout. You’ll end up hurting your relationship with the animal and loosing more than just that behavior. Too little and the punishment will only serve to desensitize the animal and build resistance.

4. The punishment must happen immediately after the behavior it is to be associated with. Otherwise, a clear enough association between the wrong behavior and the punishment will not be made.

5. The punishment must be associated with the behavior, but not with the trainer. Otherwise, the trainer becomes part of the punishment and the animal starts fearing and disliking the trainer.

6. The punishment must happen every time the behavior occurs. If punishment does not happen every time the behavior occurs, the behavior gets put on a variable schedule of reinforcement. Depending on the behavior and how often the punishment actually occurs, the animal could decide that performing the behavior was worth the risk of getting punished.

7. There must be an alternative for the animal.

8. Punishment must never be used to the extent that punishment outweighs positive reinforcement (from the animal’s perspective, not yours!)

If you can’t follow all 8 of these rules, you’re probably better off avoiding the use of punishment. Heck, even if you can follow all 8 rules, you’re probably better off avoiding the use of punishment, as punishment can result in so many unintended and undesirable side effects.
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Postby furever_pit » August 3rd, 2010, 10:27 am

Katrina, I agree with you that it helps to have a dog that does have some handler sensitivity. I think they are just easier to work with and that makes your goals more attainable. I think you can breed with that level of sensitivity in mind. I too am not big on dogs who are truly handler aggressive. However, I don't mind a handler reactive dog and think they can often teach the handler a few things. That would be Cairo. :wink:

I actually use a lot of marker training. I like it with puppies and older dogs who don't have any experience. I will use it if I am introducing a new behavior, stuff like that. But the corrections come.

Erin - I actually like that list of 8 rules that you posted. It is important that the handler know how to give corrections effectively. But that is not impossible to teach or learn.
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Postby LisaM » August 3rd, 2010, 10:39 am

I would say that a MAJORITY of "pet" people (again, not using that as a derogatory term), who have dogs that are fixed (and, therefore, can't breed) care immensely about their dogs' stress level - and their ability to handle and recover from it. That's why we have such drugs as clomipramine, prozac, etc for pets.


Ok perhaps I should have worded that differently. I think you guys are right in saying that your avg pet person does care about their dogs and how they handle stress. I just think they care in a different way than what I would.

With me, it’s all part of the evaluation of the total dog. If I had a dog that’s temperament was so soft that I felt medication was the only option for dealing with it’s stress, I honestly would not keep it. I would put it down or re-home the dog first. I care about how my dogs handle stress and pressure (all kinds-handler, helper, environmental etc) because when I work with a dog it generally starts out as a breeding prospect and I think breeding dogs should have a strong enough temperament that they can deal with your various forms of it. On the other hand your average pet owner tends to look at their dogs when it’s stressed and feel sorry for it, trying to think of ways to make the dog feel better or more confident etc…

This is not to say I expect my dogs to all be perfect, never show stress, or ever require a little bit of help. I think most will at some time or another become stressed and it will show in the quality of their work. However, it is important to me that with a breeding prospect that meltdowns over stress isn’t something that is occurring all the time and when it does the dog is able to bounce back relatively quickly.

So yes, I do agree with you guys...I didn't mean to imply that people don't care about their dogs. In fact I think in many cases people care about their dogs feelings a little too much!
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Postby amazincc » August 3rd, 2010, 11:59 am

LisaM wrote: In fact I think in many cases people care about their dogs feelings a little too much!


I guess I fall under that category, but I can't imagine NOT caring how my actions make my dogs feel... I think there is no such thing as caring too much, or being too kind, when it comes to how we treat our companions. I am not saying to "let the dogs get away w/murder", but I'm not - and never have been - a huge fan of physical punishment/corrections... unless that's the ONLY way left to work on some extremely undesirable behavior, for instance.
I am a big fan of "natural consequences" once my dogs know exactly what's expected of them in a variety of situations... meaning the "punishment" occurs as a result of the dogs misbehavior, but isn't necessarily doled out by me.
I am also not a breeder, and all my kids already came w/a variety of issues... some of those issues would probably be compounded by "punishments", so I usually err on the side of caution when it comes to any kind of "physical" discipline.
I prefer to "remove" temptation, and I actually can't relate to a lot of the problems most typical dog owners complain about... none of my dogs counter-surf, they don't get into the garbage, there are no fights over food, treats or toys, etc.
Is there stuff we need to work on? Definitely.
Are they completely out-of-control because I'm not an overly strict owner? Definitely not. :D
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Postby katiek0417 » August 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I have a question - I'm not sure I understand why how a dog handles stress from a handler is important? I guess what I'm not understanding is what you mean by stress. Are you talking normal stress of "holy crap, I'm at the Dog Sports Open and I feel woefully unprepared!" or stress as in corrections from the handler? I guess I never try to purposefully stress Inara out - my goal is to teach her to trust me and keep her under threshold. Granted, she's not a protection dog, and I'm seeing that's where a big difference is coming in, but she has competed in obedience trials (one very scary one) and I'm planning on competing more with her. But I would think in any sport, you want the dog to trust you, not be stressed because of you. Am I just misunderstanding the whole "stress from the handler" aspect?


Personally, when I say stress...can the dog handle a correction from me (or does it shut down), and despite that correction can it still work happily for me...I can't speak for anyone else - that's just my perspective...

I had a dog that would shut down when I corrected him, and I dreaded having to do anything with him. Not that I need correction to train a dog...but, with him, he didn't enjoy obedience with OR WITHOUT correction...I couldn't give a command without him shutting down sometimes...

furever_pit wrote:Katrina, I agree with you that it helps to have a dog that does have some handler sensitivity. I think they are just easier to work with and that makes your goals more attainable. I think you can breed with that level of sensitivity in mind. I too am not big on dogs who are truly handler aggressive. However, I don't mind a handler reactive dog and think they can often teach the handler a few things. That would be Cairo. :wink:

I actually use a lot of marker training. I like it with puppies and older dogs who don't have any experience. I will use it if I am introducing a new behavior, stuff like that. But the corrections come.

Erin - I actually like that list of 8 rules that you posted. It is important that the handler know how to give corrections effectively. But that is not impossible to teach or learn.


I don't mind a handler reactive dog (one that lets me know about myself if I find my frustrations are getting the best of me). All my dogs are handler reactive...but they still have that sensitivity to me...I will say when Axo was younger, he wasn't sensitive to me - and he didn't develop the sensitivity until I started to correct him...even now, he doesn't care all that much - and I have a feeling he will be a little bit more like Jue when it comes to hard-headedness! :rolleyes2:

I, too, use a ton of marker training. I use it with my young dogs, and I used it when I got Nemo (all he knew how to do was search, sit, and bite)....but, I agree (again) the corrections had to come...

And I love those 8 rules...I've seen them before and really like them...the only one I don't totally agree with is #5...and it's not that I disagree with it...I just think it needs clarification. I like to use a pinch collar b/c I want the dog to know that I administer the correction. I have found that this helps especially if you pair a correction command (pfoeey, eh-eh, etc) with it. I've noticed a lot of dogs begin to have a "disconnect" if you primarily use an e-collar for corrections...which they don't have with a pinch and a verbal correction command...I noticed this in Cy, as an example...when I first got him, I was using an e-collar primarily (b/c I didn't seem to be able to give him a good enough correction on the pinch), and he blew me off a lot (regardless of whether the collar was on or off). When Jerry taught me a different way to hold my leash (to give a better correction), and I started to use the pinch collar more, Cy began to respect me more and not blow me off (regardless of whether the collar was on or off)...

LisaM wrote:Ok perhaps I should have worded that differently. I think you guys are right in saying that your avg pet person does care about their dogs and how they handle stress. I just think they care in a different way than what I would.

With me, it’s all part of the evaluation of the total dog. If I had a dog that’s temperament was so soft that I felt medication was the only option for dealing with it’s stress, I honestly would not keep it. I would put it down or re-home the dog first. I care about how my dogs handle stress and pressure (all kinds-handler, helper, environmental etc) because when I work with a dog it generally starts out as a breeding prospect and I think breeding dogs should have a strong enough temperament that they can deal with your various forms of it. On the other hand your average pet owner tends to look at their dogs when it’s stressed and feel sorry for it, trying to think of ways to make the dog feel better or more confident etc…

This is not to say I expect my dogs to all be perfect, never show stress, or ever require a little bit of help. I think most will at some time or another become stressed and it will show in the quality of their work. However, it is important to me that with a breeding prospect that meltdowns over stress isn’t something that is occurring all the time and when it does the dog is able to bounce back relatively quickly.

So yes, I do agree with you guys...I didn't mean to imply that people don't care about their dogs. In fact I think in many cases people care about their dogs feelings a little too much!


Thanks for clarifying! I was hoping you didn't mean it the way I took it... :wink:

amazincc wrote:I guess I fall under that category, but I can't imagine NOT caring how my actions make my dogs feel... I think there is no such thing as caring too much, or being too kind, when it comes to how we treat our companions. I am not saying to "let the dogs get away w/murder", but I'm not - and never have been - a huge fan of physical punishment/corrections... unless that's the ONLY way left to work on some extremely undesirable behavior, for instance.
I am a big fan of "natural consequences" once my dogs know exactly what's expected of them in a variety of situations... meaning the "punishment" occurs as a result of the dogs misbehavior, but isn't necessarily doled out by me.
I am also not a breeder, and all my kids already came w/a variety of issues... some of those issues would probably be compounded by "punishments", so I usually err on the side of caution when it comes to any kind of "physical" discipline.
I prefer to "remove" temptation, and I actually can't relate to a lot of the problems most typical dog owners complain about... none of my dogs counter-surf, they don't get into the garbage, there are no fights over food, treats or toys, etc.
Is there stuff we need to work on? Definitely.
Are they completely out-of-control because I'm not an overly strict owner? Definitely not. :D


When I work with pet dogs, I almost never use corrections....why? Because in most cases I can get what I want from negative punishment (removing something good, like attention or playtime, to decrease the likelihood of a behavior)...and I think that's what you mean by remove temptation...

It's harder to do that if you're competing in anything where you can't remove temptation...not impossible...just harder...I know DA dogs that run flyball and don't consider fighting another dog when they're working...so, not impossible, just harder...
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Postby amazincc » August 3rd, 2010, 12:24 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
When I work with pet dogs, I almost never use corrections....why? Because in most cases I can get what I want from negative punishment (removing something good, like attention or playtime, to decrease the likelihood of a behavior)...and I think that's what you mean by remove temptation...

It's harder to do that if you're competing in anything where you can't remove temptation...not impossible...just harder...I know DA dogs that run flyball and don't consider fighting another dog when they're working...so, not impossible, just harder...


I definitely think pet dogs are treated/trained differently from working dogs, and since I've never been owned by a working dog I can't really comment too much on the training methods... I don't know enough about the subject. :)
By "removing temptation" I actually mean that I'm pretty vigilant about things and situations that *could* cause my dogs to get into trouble, so I try to avoid those potential triggers like the plague... :oops: lol
I have some rules that must absolutely be obeyed, no matter what... but for the most part I'm pretty relaxed about stuff.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » August 3rd, 2010, 1:14 pm

Do you guys introduce corrections no matter what? If so, why? If the dog is doing well and can be taught the task with R+ and P-, why do you introduce corrections?

During pin-up week, Erin and I got to talking about this subject and she had mentioned there's a guy who trains police dogs and titles in either PSA or Schutzhund (can't remember which, sorry) and he trains without P+. I can't remember his name...but obviously it can be done. Were his dogs special? Softer?

And why do protection people (not you guys necessarily, I'm vastly overgeneralizing here!) almost seem to enjoy it when their dog comes up the leash at them? I frequent a lot of different forums and I notice that a lot of people like having a dog that tries to nail them in response to a punishment. I often see, "yeah, so and so came up the leash at me today, hahahahah...I love this dog!" I don't get that, again, because I want to be a team when I'm working with Inara, partners. Not an adversarial pair.

I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, so forgive me if I offended somebody. Those questions were just in my head and this seemed an appropriate thread to ask them in. :)
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Postby LisaM » August 3rd, 2010, 1:25 pm

amazincc wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:
When I work with pet dogs, I almost never use corrections....why? Because in most cases I can get what I want from negative punishment (removing something good, like attention or playtime, to decrease the likelihood of a behavior)...and I think that's what you mean by remove temptation...

It's harder to do that if you're competing in anything where you can't remove temptation...not impossible...just harder...I know DA dogs that run flyball and don't consider fighting another dog when they're working...so, not impossible, just harder...


I definitely think pet dogs are treated/trained differently from working dogs, and since I've never been owned by a working dog I can't really comment too much on the training methods... I don't know enough about the subject. :)
By "removing temptation" I actually mean that I'm pretty vigilant about things and situations that *could* cause my dogs to get into trouble, so I try to avoid those potential triggers like the plague... :oops: lol
I have some rules that must absolutely be obeyed, no matter what... but for the most part I'm pretty relaxed about stuff.


There ya go...

I think many people fall under this category.

amazincc, I don't come to this board enough to know where you stand when it comes to different aspects of training so this is not directed at you in particular but I think that many of those who are so against corrections do this very thing. Instead of taking a balanced approach and utilizing corrections in order to get a more reliable dog, they simply avoid the problem. If someone wants to avoid a problem, that is their right to do so but at the same time these people should also not be making comments about how bad it is to give a dog a correction. Maybe if their dogs got a correction once in a while so they can learn that their is a price to pay for non compliance their owners wouldn't have to avoid so many situations with them!
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Postby LisaM » August 3rd, 2010, 1:37 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Do you guys introduce corrections no matter what? If so, why? If the dog is doing well and can be taught the task with R+ and P-, why do you introduce corrections?


I think this is where some people seem to be confused...the TEACHING part, IMO, should not require corrections. A dog can be taught pretty much any exercise or position through shaping, marking, rewarding etc..The thing is, unless you lock your dog in a closet, your dog is at some point going to need some "reminders". A dog which you know 100% understands what is being asked yet they still chose to blow you off needs to be taught that ignoring commands is unacceptable. A simple verbal correction is not enough of a deterrent for the majority of dogs. Most need more than that! Even the young bitch I am training who I consider to be fairly sensitive to me requires more than a verbal correction. If she never got corrected she would walk all over me any chance she could get..


And why do protection people (not you guys necessarily, I'm vastly overgeneralizing here!) almost seem to enjoy it when their dog comes up the leash at them? I frequent a lot of different forums and I notice that a lot of people like having a dog that tries to nail them in response to a punishment. I often see, "yeah, so and so came up the leash at me today, hahahahah...I love this dog!" I don't get that, again, because I want to be a team when I'm working with Inara, partners. Not an adversarial pair.

I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, so forgive me if I offended somebody. Those questions were just in my head and this seemed an appropriate thread to ask them in. :)


I don't think I know of anyone who actually enjoys getting bit by their dog and I for one do not see the fascination in this sort of behavior. I have seen my share of what I would consider weak dogs, come up the leash on their handlers so that type of thing certainly doesn't impress me. However, in some cases handlers may have done a poor job of TEACHING, rushing through the foundation and as a result end up with a dog that is confused and not clear of an exercise. Handler may end up getting frustrated, start giving corrections that the dog doesn't really deserve since they weren't taught right in the first place and bam, next thing you know they are getting bit. In cases like that, I do not blame the dog as they are only sticking up for themselves. Think about being at work and your boss comes up to you and starts giving you orders in a foreign language and when you aren't able to carry it out because you don't understand what is being asked of you, your boss punches you in the face...I think most of us would be mad and would hit them right back!
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » August 3rd, 2010, 1:52 pm

LisaM wrote:Instead of taking a balanced approach and utilizing corrections in order to get a more reliable dog, they simply avoid the problem. If someone wants to avoid a problem, that is their right to do so but at the same time these people should also not be making comments about how bad it is to give a dog a correction. Maybe if their dogs got a correction once in a while so they can learn that their is a price to pay for non compliance their owners wouldn't have to avoid so many situations with them!


Actually, at least speaking for myself, the majority of us don't avoid the problem. We work with it at a distance or distraction level that is low enough to keep the dog under threshold. We then slowly work up. Christine and I have had several discussion on the forum about why I keep torturing myself (it's not torture anymore :wink: ) by working with Inara in classes to get her over her dog reactivity. I could just take her on walks at night, by myself, but I wasn't happy with that. I'd already tried yanking and cranking her into compliance, but that didn't work. I knew potential was there for her to a happier, less reactive, more active dog. So we've been working our hineys off on it, using R+ and P-, and her progress is astounding. We've won ribbons in obedience competitions and she is now able to meet other dogs with proper introductions. So it doesn't require a "balanced" approach to fix problems. It's very workable with no corrections.
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Postby amazincc » August 3rd, 2010, 2:34 pm

LisaM wrote:
amazincc, I don't come to this board enough to know where you stand when it comes to different aspects of training so this is not directed at you in particular but I think that many of those who are so against corrections do this very thing. Instead of taking a balanced approach and utilizing corrections in order to get a more reliable dog, they simply avoid the problem. If someone wants to avoid a problem, that is their right to do so but at the same time these people should also not be making comments about how bad it is to give a dog a correction. Maybe if their dogs got a correction once in a while so they can learn that their is a price to pay for non compliance their owners wouldn't have to avoid so many situations with them!



Oooh, I think you completely misunderstood me... or I didn't explain myself very well... or both. lol

I definitely have rules, and all five dogs who currently live w/me are well-behaved and are "favorites" w/my vet and her staff. My dogs are well liked by all the neighbors who have met them.

What I meant by avoiding problems is... five dogs = potential for major mischief and squabbles over whatever resources one or the other may deem valuable = me correcting and/or punishing all day long just to keep a semblance of order.
I avoid THOSE situation by crating/rotating, separating by baby gates, putting up high value toys, and supervising at all times when they are out together. I have a lock on my garbage can. I don't leave food out on the kitchen counter. Simple stuff like that... and I'm always somewhat stumped when I watch CM and people can't come up w/the most simple solutions by themselves. They need to have their dog(s) alpha-rolled-punished-stared down because he/she was never crate-trained... or he/she won't get off the bed w/out growling... or whatever... To me those things aren't exactly rocket science. :rolleyes2: :|

I'm not a "lazy" owner by any means, but I do tend to pick my battles... some things are more important to me than others, but the health, emotional well-being, and safety of my dogs is the most important thing to me.

Young Mr. Seppel and I, for example, are currently "working" on his issues w/our fence, since all the clicker-training and the LAT games in the world have not made one little dent in his asshat behavior when someone happens to walk past our yard... he completely loses his ever-loving mind, and the consequences won't be pleasant the next time he charges off like an idiot while completely ignoring me.
I'm not happy about having to let him self-correct a few times, if that's what it takes to make a lasting impression on him... but, like I said, I pick my battles. :wink:
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Postby TheRedQueen » August 3rd, 2010, 2:53 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Do you guys introduce corrections no matter what? If so, why? If the dog is doing well and can be taught the task with R+ and P-, why do you introduce corrections?

During pin-up week, Erin and I got to talking about this subject and she had mentioned there's a guy who trains police dogs and titles in either PSA or Schutzhund (can't remember which, sorry) and he trains without P+. I can't remember his name...but obviously it can be done. Were his dogs special? Softer?


It was Steve White I was speaking of (i2ik9.com is his website, btw)...it's his rules I posted above. :D

And why do protection people (not you guys necessarily, I'm vastly overgeneralizing here!) almost seem to enjoy it when their dog comes up the leash at them? I frequent a lot of different forums and I notice that a lot of people like having a dog that tries to nail them in response to a punishment. I often see, "yeah, so and so came up the leash at me today, hahahahah...I love this dog!" I don't get that, again, because I want to be a team when I'm working with Inara, partners. Not an adversarial pair.


exactly! I've never gotten that either.

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Postby TheRedQueen » August 3rd, 2010, 2:54 pm

amazincc wrote:
LisaM wrote: In fact I think in many cases people care about their dogs feelings a little too much!


I guess I fall under that category, but I can't imagine NOT caring how my actions make my dogs feel... I think there is no such thing as caring too much, or being too kind, when it comes to how we treat our companions. I am not saying to "let the dogs get away w/murder", but I'm not - and never have been - a huge fan of physical punishment/corrections... unless that's the ONLY way left to work on some extremely undesirable behavior, for instance.
I am a big fan of "natural consequences" once my dogs know exactly what's expected of them in a variety of situations... meaning the "punishment" occurs as a result of the dogs misbehavior, but isn't necessarily doled out by me.
I am also not a breeder, and all my kids already came w/a variety of issues... some of those issues would probably be compounded by "punishments", so I usually err on the side of caution when it comes to any kind of "physical" discipline.
I prefer to "remove" temptation, and I actually can't relate to a lot of the problems most typical dog owners complain about... none of my dogs counter-surf, they don't get into the garbage, there are no fights over food, treats or toys, etc.
Is there stuff we need to work on? Definitely.
Are they completely out-of-control because I'm not an overly strict owner? Definitely not. :D


Well said! :goodStuff:
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"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby furever_pit » August 3rd, 2010, 3:16 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Do you guys introduce corrections no matter what? If so, why? If the dog is doing well and can be taught the task with R+ and P-, why do you introduce corrections?


No, for me it depends on the dog. But the kinds of dogs that I like and that I want to own and work with are going to need corrections. I like strong dogs and I like high drive dogs. I also like dogs that can take correction and not shut down or get their feelings hurt. I purchased a working line bulldog some time ago and he just does not have what it takes to train and achieve the levels that I aspire to. I decided that I wasn't going to beat up the dog to make him do something if his heart is not in it (and no, no amount of food or clicking would ever convince this dog to stay in the fight when it comes to crunch time). So he's done working, retired and living the good life. lol Does he get the same kind of training as the other two dogs? No, but then again none of them are trained exactly the same way.

pitbullmamaliz wrote:During pin-up week, Erin and I got to talking about this subject and she had mentioned there's a guy who trains police dogs and titles in either PSA or Schutzhund (can't remember which, sorry) and he trains without P+. I can't remember his name...but obviously it can be done. Were his dogs special? Softer?


Without seeing the dogs I would not say that they are special or softer necessarily. But why did he not use +P? Were his dogs shutting down? Was the stress from control work affecting the quality of their protection work? Did they not recover quickly enough?

If I were to end up with a dog who was so sensitive that it could not take a correction, well it would not stick around here. And if I have dogs who are strong enough that a correction is done and over with and no one has hurt feelings then why not use corrections?

pitbullmamaliz wrote:And why do protection people (not you guys necessarily, I'm vastly overgeneralizing here!) almost seem to enjoy it when their dog comes up the leash at them? I frequent a lot of different forums and I notice that a lot of people like having a dog that tries to nail them in response to a punishment. I often see, "yeah, so and so came up the leash at me today, hahahahah...I love this dog!" I don't get that, again, because I want to be a team when I'm working with Inara, partners. Not an adversarial pair.

I'm really not trying to be antagonistic here, so forgive me if I offended somebody. Those questions were just in my head and this seemed an appropriate thread to ask them in. :)


I have two dogs who will come up the lead. Dylan has done it once in his life and it was to our very first trainer who was hanging him by the prong - totally unfair correction with no way out and my dog stood up for himself (when I really should have been the one standing up for him, but you live and learn). There is a thread here somewhere about what happened I believe. Anyway, I think it was totally in my dog's right to defend himself in that situation. More power to him.

Cairo, I have no doubt will nail me at some point. He is a very reactive dog anyway and he gets spun up easily. He is going to be the kind of dog who will not put up with unfair corrections or bad timing, but he will make (and is making me) a better handler. Do I think it is super cool that he might tag me? No, it just is what he is. But, I also think that dog bites are par for the course when you are working with certain types of dogs. I also recognize that Cairo pulls crap because he is looking for a reaction, he wants a fight. He is true to his bloodlines and he's gonna bring a war to some decoys when he is older. Well, at least he shows the potential to. haha.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » August 3rd, 2010, 3:29 pm

furever_pit wrote:Without seeing the dogs I would not say that they are special or softer necessarily. But why did he not use +P? Were his dogs shutting down? Was the stress from control work affecting the quality of their protection work? Did they not recover quickly enough?

If I were to end up with a dog who was so sensitive that it could not take a correction, well it would not stick around here. And if I have dogs who are strong enough that a correction is done and over with and no one has hurt feelings then why not use corrections?


Ah! But on the other hand, if they're working beautifully, why would corrections be necessary? That's what I'm not understanding. If the dog is doing the job fantastically without a correction, why add one?
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Postby katiek0417 » August 3rd, 2010, 3:39 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Do you guys introduce corrections no matter what? If so, why? If the dog is doing well and can be taught the task with R+ and P-, why do you introduce corrections?


I introduce them once the dogs knows what I am asking without any distraction. Typically right around a year old. I TEACH ALL NEW behaviors with +R and -P, and no distractions. I allow the dog to tell me when it needs to start having corrections. How? Well, let me give you an example...Nemo and his out. When I first got Nemo, he wouldn't out. We tried to trade him sleeves, I tried to choke him off, we tried food, and all would work for a day or so, then he's almost become "immune" to it...and it wouldn't work. So, at that point, we introduced a correction to get him to out (after which he was immediately rewarded).


pitbullmamaliz wrote:During pin-up week, Erin and I got to talking about this subject and she had mentioned there's a guy who trains police dogs and titles in either PSA or Schutzhund (can't remember which, sorry) and he trains without P+. I can't remember his name...but obviously it can be done. Were his dogs special? Softer?


I don't know that he's actually shown his dogs. He does do USPCA, but that's not a dog sport...I will tell you that the nature of the upper levels of PSA (surprise and unpredictability) make it very difficult to train for (there's really no standardization in even the amount of agitation you could see). So, if you don't know what will come up in a trial, how do you know what to train for using only +R or -P? This topic came up on the PSA Message Board, and while we won't say it CAN'T be done, we will say that we haven't seen it, and we believe it would be very difficult to do...Now, I'm just talking about PSA...

pitbullmamaliz wrote:And why do protection people (not you guys necessarily, I'm vastly overgeneralizing here!) almost seem to enjoy it when their dog comes up the leash at them? I frequent a lot of different forums and I notice that a lot of people like having a dog that tries to nail them in response to a punishment. I often see, "yeah, so and so came up the leash at me today, hahahahah...I love this dog!" I don't get that, again, because I want to be a team when I'm working with Inara, partners. Not an adversarial pair.


Personally, I won't own a dog that comes up the line at me. Axo, let's get this straight, used to bite me during bitework when I would choke him off the grip. This is common in mals and dutchies, and it's out of frustration. We did have to correct him for it, and he's fine now...he just thought, at the time, he could get away with it...but, that wasn't a case of handler aggression. Greg got rid of a dog that was handler aggressive. Cy let me know about myself 1 time. He also didn't really bite - he warned me (let's face it, if he wanted to hurt me, he would've)...I was getting out of hand with my corrections (and I was getting unfair with them) because I was frustrated with him...and he let me know about it...That is the ONLY time he has EVER shown anything like that...in fact, I was surprised....

But, a handler aggressive dog...a truly handler aggressive dog....No. Won't do it...
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Postby furever_pit » August 3rd, 2010, 3:56 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:Ah! But on the other hand, if they're working beautifully, why would corrections be necessary? That's what I'm not understanding. If the dog is doing the job fantastically without a correction, why add one?


Because you are not going to get fantastic anything in some of these sports without correction. Could you make it work over time and perhaps get some low level titles? Maybe. But the most successful people in my venue and other similar sports use a balanced approach.
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Postby furever_pit » August 3rd, 2010, 4:00 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Personally, I won't own a dog that comes up the line at me. Axo, let's get this straight, used to bite me during bitework when I would choke him off the grip. This is common in mals and dutchies, and it's out of frustration. We did have to correct him for it, and he's fine now...he just thought, at the time, he could get away with it...but, that wasn't a case of handler aggression. Greg got rid of a dog that was handler aggressive. Cy let me know about myself 1 time. He also didn't really bite - he warned me (let's face it, if he wanted to hurt me, he would've)...I was getting out of hand with my corrections (and I was getting unfair with them) because I was frustrated with him...and he let me know about it...That is the ONLY time he has EVER shown anything like that...in fact, I was surprised....

But, a handler aggressive dog...a truly handler aggressive dog....No. Won't do it...


This is the kind of thing that I expect from Cairo.
When it comes, we will deal with it and move on. But nothing I have seen from him so far leads to me to believe that he is handler aggressive. I like to describe him as "handler reactive".

Sorry, just wanted to clarifyl
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Postby katiek0417 » August 3rd, 2010, 4:03 pm

furever_pit wrote:
pitbullmamaliz wrote:Ah! But on the other hand, if they're working beautifully, why would corrections be necessary? That's what I'm not understanding. If the dog is doing the job fantastically without a correction, why add one?


Because you are not going to get fantastic anything in some of these sports without correction. Could you make it work over time and perhaps get some low level titles? Maybe. But the most successful people in my venue and other similar sports use a balanced approach.


Also, I'm not going to lie, but a lot of these sports have people that score really high, so you need to be able to score that much higher to do well...does that make sense?

furever_pit wrote:This is the kind of thing that I expect from Cairo.
When it comes, we will deal with it and move on. But nothing I have seen from him so far leads to me to believe that he is handler aggressive. I like to describe him as "handler reactive".

Sorry, just wanted to clarify


I knew what you meant...I just wanted to give my example in response to what Liz said (I figured you were talking about the type of thing I was). :wink:
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
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Postby mnp13 » August 3rd, 2010, 11:35 pm

LisaM wrote:amazincc, I don't come to this board enough to know where you stand when it comes to different aspects of training so this is not directed at you in particular but I think that many of those who are so against corrections do this very thing. Instead of taking a balanced approach and utilizing corrections in order to get a more reliable dog, they simply avoid the problem. If someone wants to avoid a problem, that is their right to do so but at the same time these people should also not be making comments about how bad it is to give a dog a correction. Maybe if their dogs got a correction once in a while so they can learn that their is a price to pay for non compliance their owners wouldn't have to avoid so many situations with them!


I really don't have the time or the energy to devote the time I'd like to to this thread tonight. However, I will try to tomorrow. But I wanted to address this post...

You may not have meant to come off this way, but please be aware that this post comes of incredibly condescending and well, rude.

I train my dogs using corrections. Using compulsion. It's not good, it's not bad. It's not the wrong or right way to train. It's just just one way to train. Yup, there was a time that I just rolled my eyes at the kissy huggy foo-foo trainers, and I don't any more, because quite frankly, I know better.

I have to admit, I laughed my ass off last summer when Erin booted Riggs across the room for getting in her face while she was sitting on the floor eating pizza. It was a 100% perfectly timed, perfect level, absolutely appropriate correction. She also throttled Inara for trying to eat my cat - another well timed, appropriate correction. She knows perfectly well how to use corrections when she chooses to, but with her dogs, she chooses not to. And, quite frankly, I have yet to see another dog on the planet who is better behaved than her dogs. (Well, except for that one little issue... :nono: )

I do believe that there is merit in consequences, and I choose to make those consequences physical. Not everyone does. And not everyone spends all their time avoiding situations instead of dealing with them. Assuming that that is how they address issues makes you look the fool, not them.
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