pitbullmamaliz wrote:I have a question - I'm not sure I understand why how a dog handles stress from a handler is important? I guess what I'm not understanding is what you mean by stress. Are you talking normal stress of "holy crap, I'm at the Dog Sports Open and I feel woefully unprepared!" or stress as in corrections from the handler? I guess I never try to purposefully stress Inara out - my goal is to teach her to trust me and keep her under threshold. Granted, she's not a protection dog, and I'm seeing that's where a big difference is coming in, but she has competed in obedience trials (one very scary one) and I'm planning on competing more with her. But I would think in any sport, you want the dog to trust you, not be stressed because of you. Am I just misunderstanding the whole "stress from the handler" aspect?
Personally, when I say stress...can the dog handle a correction from me (or does it shut down), and despite that correction can it still work happily for me...I can't speak for anyone else - that's just my perspective...
I had a dog that would shut down when I corrected him, and I dreaded having to do anything with him. Not that I need correction to train a dog...but, with him, he didn't enjoy obedience with OR WITHOUT correction...I couldn't give a command without him shutting down sometimes...
furever_pit wrote:Katrina, I agree with you that it helps to have a dog that does have some handler sensitivity. I think they are just easier to work with and that makes your goals more attainable. I think you can breed with that level of sensitivity in mind. I too am not big on dogs who are truly handler aggressive. However, I don't mind a handler reactive dog and think they can often teach the handler a few things. That would be Cairo.
I actually use a lot of marker training. I like it with puppies and older dogs who don't have any experience. I will use it if I am introducing a new behavior, stuff like that. But the corrections come.
Erin - I actually like that list of 8 rules that you posted. It is important that the handler know how to give corrections effectively. But that is not impossible to teach or learn.
I don't mind a handler reactive dog (one that lets me know about myself if I find my frustrations are getting the best of me). All my dogs are handler reactive...but they still have that sensitivity to me...I will say when Axo was younger, he wasn't sensitive to me - and he didn't develop the sensitivity until I started to correct him...even now, he doesn't care all that much - and I have a feeling he will be a little bit more like Jue when it comes to hard-headedness!
I, too, use a ton of marker training. I use it with my young dogs, and I used it when I got Nemo (all he knew how to do was search, sit, and bite)....but, I agree (again) the corrections had to come...
And I love those 8 rules...I've seen them before and really like them...the only one I don't totally agree with is #5...and it's not that I disagree with it...I just think it needs clarification. I like to use a pinch collar b/c I want the dog to know that
I administer the correction. I have found that this helps especially if you pair a correction command (pfoeey, eh-eh, etc) with it. I've noticed a lot of dogs begin to have a "disconnect" if you primarily use an e-collar for corrections...which they don't have with a pinch and a verbal correction command...I noticed this in Cy, as an example...when I first got him, I was using an e-collar primarily (b/c I didn't seem to be able to give him a good enough correction on the pinch), and he blew me off a lot (regardless of whether the collar was on or off). When Jerry taught me a different way to hold my leash (to give a better correction), and I started to use the pinch collar more, Cy began to respect me more and not blow me off (regardless of whether the collar was on or off)...
LisaM wrote:Ok perhaps I should have worded that differently. I think you guys are right in saying that your avg pet person does care about their dogs and how they handle stress. I just think they care in a different way than what I would.
With me, it’s all part of the evaluation of the total dog. If I had a dog that’s temperament was so soft that I felt medication was the only option for dealing with it’s stress, I honestly would not keep it. I would put it down or re-home the dog first. I care about how my dogs handle stress and pressure (all kinds-handler, helper, environmental etc) because when I work with a dog it generally starts out as a breeding prospect and I think breeding dogs should have a strong enough temperament that they can deal with your various forms of it. On the other hand your average pet owner tends to look at their dogs when it’s stressed and feel sorry for it, trying to think of ways to make the dog feel better or more confident etc…
This is not to say I expect my dogs to all be perfect, never show stress, or ever require a little bit of help. I think most will at some time or another become stressed and it will show in the quality of their work. However, it is important to me that with a breeding prospect that meltdowns over stress isn’t something that is occurring all the time and when it does the dog is able to bounce back relatively quickly.
So yes, I do agree with you guys...I didn't mean to imply that people don't care about their dogs. In fact I think in many cases people care about their dogs feelings a little too much!
Thanks for clarifying! I was hoping you didn't mean it the way I took it...
amazincc wrote:I guess I fall under that category, but I can't imagine NOT caring how my actions make my dogs feel... I think there is no such thing as caring too much, or being too kind, when it comes to how we treat our companions. I am not saying to "let the dogs get away w/murder", but I'm not - and never have been - a huge fan of physical punishment/corrections... unless that's the ONLY way left to work on some extremely undesirable behavior, for instance.
I am a big fan of "natural consequences" once my dogs know exactly what's expected of them in a variety of situations... meaning the "punishment" occurs as a result of the dogs misbehavior, but isn't necessarily doled out by me.
I am also not a breeder, and all my kids already came w/a variety of issues... some of those issues would probably be compounded by "punishments", so I usually err on the side of caution when it comes to any kind of "physical" discipline.
I prefer to "remove" temptation, and I actually can't relate to a lot of the problems most typical dog owners complain about... none of my dogs counter-surf, they don't get into the garbage, there are no fights over food, treats or toys, etc.
Is there stuff we need to work on? Definitely.
Are they completely out-of-control because I'm not an overly strict owner? Definitely not.
When I work with pet dogs, I almost never use corrections....why? Because in most cases I can get what I want from negative punishment (removing something good, like attention or playtime, to decrease the likelihood of a behavior)...and I think that's what you mean by remove temptation...
It's harder to do that if you're competing in anything where you can't remove temptation...not impossible...just harder...I know DA dogs that run flyball and don't consider fighting another dog when they're working...so, not impossible, just harder...