TheRedQueen wrote:Of course I can.
My dogs occasionally get verbal corrections...and they vary in their reactions...Score and Xander slink away, Inara wiggles her nub and grins. Sawyer growls at me. Fig hits the ground. Ripley ignores me...(but then again, he's deaf mostly now.
TheRedQueen wrote:I know how well my dogs handle different forms of stress, their "bounce back" from things, and how tuned in they are to me...I know this by observing them as they work with me, and observing how they react to the world at large. They experience a LOT of different things in life, living with me...and every experience is worked to be as positive for them as possible. We build on things, so I end up with a confident, happy dog that trusts me. I want my dogs to know that no harm will come to them (if I can help it at all)...so they are supremely confident.
TheRedQueen wrote:That said, there are things that I don't mean to be aversive...so we try and work through it if it happens. For instance...funny story from the pin-up calendar shoot in NY this summer. I had Figment with me (the Wiener). Liz, Fig and I were all hanging around in Michelle's friend's yard...while Tina was getting her photo taken. I was going to do a fun pic with Fig on top of this friend's outdoor BBQ grill...with Score looking on...just for grins and giggles. So I took Fig and plopped him down on top of this grill (big, stone structure with a metal grill on top). He started acting all funny...lifting his paws, kinda hopping around. Wouldn't stand still. I wanted him to stand still for the photo...so I could have corrected the behavior I wanted. Instead I touched the grill...realized it was BURNING hot, and scooped him off. He didn't complain, he didn't get off the grill...he just gritted his teeth and took it. I felt horrible...I had't meant to hurt him! So after this, we found some wood (plywood sheet) to put on top of the metal, and put him back up on there...after some click/treats, he was lying down quietly on the grill top (with wood still). We worked through it...with no corrections, and it was all good...he trusted me still, and he recovered just fine. (the same shoot, we stuffed him backwards into a mail box for a picture...you could hear his tail banging away inside...he was so happy to work!)
My Inara runs flyball...and is VERY good at what she does. She's an HA dog that is extremely fearful, but can not only function but excel in the flyball ring...all trained with NO corrections, all positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
TheRedQueen wrote:Here's a question back atcha...
How do you determine the appropriate level of correction for each dog, and for each circumstance? How do you know that it's the right amount, not too much (that might shut the dog down) or not enough (the behavior is not suppressed?).
amazincc wrote:I guess I don't understand the question/topic... why would you WANT to stress out your own dog? If a verbal correction does the trick, why go further/beyond that?
TheRedQueen wrote:Of course I can.
My dogs occasionally get verbal corrections...and they vary in their reactions...Score and Xander slink away, Inara wiggles her nub and grins. Sawyer growls at me. Fig hits the ground. Ripley ignores me...(but then again, he's deaf mostly now.
furever_pit wrote:Okay, this is good. They are having different reactions to the verbal correction and this tells you something about their temperament. The one I would be most interested in would be Inara and having a heavier/more stressful correction would provide more information about how she takes correction from her handler. Sawyer I am semi-interested in but it would depend on the rest of his body signals. Ripley I am ignoring because of the deaf comment.
While your dogs' reactions to verbal correction do tell you something about them, you will never know how they react to more stress from the handler until you try.
TheRedQueen wrote:I know how well my dogs handle different forms of stress, their "bounce back" from things, and how tuned in they are to me...I know this by observing them as they work with me, and observing how they react to the world at large. They experience a LOT of different things in life, living with me...and every experience is worked to be as positive for them as possible. We build on things, so I end up with a confident, happy dog that trusts me. I want my dogs to know that no harm will come to them (if I can help it at all)...so they are supremely confident.
But stress from the handler is different than stress from the rest of the world. No?
Also, all three of my dogs are confident, happy dogs who trust me. In fact, I most frequently hear the comment that my dogs are SOOO happy when we are working (and not) and people want to know how to achieve the same with their dogs. Dylan has even been called "too happy to compete."
TheRedQueen wrote:That said, there are things that I don't mean to be aversive...so we try and work through it if it happens. For instance...funny story from the pin-up calendar shoot in NY this summer. I had Figment with me (the Wiener). Liz, Fig and I were all hanging around in Michelle's friend's yard...while Tina was getting her photo taken. I was going to do a fun pic with Fig on top of this friend's outdoor BBQ grill...with Score looking on...just for grins and giggles. So I took Fig and plopped him down on top of this grill (big, stone structure with a metal grill on top). He started acting all funny...lifting his paws, kinda hopping around. Wouldn't stand still. I wanted him to stand still for the photo...so I could have corrected the behavior I wanted. Instead I touched the grill...realized it was BURNING hot, and scooped him off. He didn't complain, he didn't get off the grill...he just gritted his teeth and took it. I felt horrible...I had't meant to hurt him! So after this, we found some wood (plywood sheet) to put on top of the metal, and put him back up on there...after some click/treats, he was lying down quietly on the grill top (with wood still). We worked through it...with no corrections, and it was all good...he trusted me still, and he recovered just fine. (the same shoot, we stuffed him backwards into a mail box for a picture...you could hear his tail banging away inside...he was so happy to work!)
My Inara runs flyball...and is VERY good at what she does. She's an HA dog that is extremely fearful, but can not only function but excel in the flyball ring...all trained with NO corrections, all positive reinforcement and negative punishment.
I would have checked the grill first before correcting my dog for not following through on a behavior, particularly if the dog is not staying still. I would not have killed my dog for what happened with Fig either. So I don't think that has much to do with whether or not you are training with correction.
TheRedQueen wrote:BTW, Score responds to raised voices by retrieving...(John and I were just talking heatedly about this thread...) Score went and brought me a magazine. He knows it makes me smile...and he likes that better than loud voices.
He usually brings me a stuffed animal or blanket.
I was not at all asking you to correct Inara more. I am sorry if it came off at that way. I was really being hypothetically curious I guess.
Again, stress from the handler they live with is very different from stress from a different handler, a decoy, the environment, etc. One of my dogs will run off the field because of environmental stress long before he will run off because of stress from the decoy. They are different processes and reactions, and will represent themselves differently genetically.
I don't think that noting general stress of the dog or how they respond to picking up on your stress (which any dog who lives with you will do) has much to do with how they respond to the stress of correction. They are different sources. And just because you are correcting the dog does not at all mean that the handler themselves are "stressed".
PS - I work rescues too.
furever_pit wrote:TheRedQueen wrote:BTW, Score responds to raised voices by retrieving...(John and I were just talking heatedly about this thread...) Score went and brought me a magazine. He knows it makes me smile...and he likes that better than loud voices.
He usually brings me a stuffed animal or blanket.
So why do you think this is? Why does he go into a retrieve when he is stressed? Is that his "safe spot"?
I'm really really not trying to be critical. I just like talking about this stuff. Dylan's safe spot is his attention heel. I blame it on spending way too much time teaching it and using too much food to do it. But that's not what he does if I am arguing with someone - in which case he gets between me and that person and barks. Even though he will never do anything.
TheRedQueen wrote:But if I have no plans on correcting my dogs physically, why do I need to know how they'll handle something that they won't get?
(people who have no plans on breeding don't care about how their dogs are able to handle and recover from stress)
pitbullmamaliz wrote:(people who have no plans on breeding don't care about how their dogs are able to handle and recover from stress)
This just seems wildly condescending, at least to me. Though Inara is never going to bred (though she'd make cute puppies! ) I absolutely do care how she's able to handle and recover from stress. I don't think I know anybody who DOESN'T care about that.
pitbullmamaliz wrote:I have a question - I'm not sure I understand why how a dog handles stress from a handler is important? I guess what I'm not understanding is what you mean by stress. Are you talking normal stress of "holy crap, I'm at the Dog Sports Open and I feel woefully unprepared!" or stress as in corrections from the handler? I guess I never try to purposefully stress Inara out - my goal is to teach her to trust me and keep her under threshold. Granted, she's not a protection dog, and I'm seeing that's where a big difference is coming in, but she has competed in obedience trials (one very scary one) and I'm planning on competing more with her. But I would think in any sport, you want the dog to trust you, not be stressed because of you. Am I just misunderstanding the whole "stress from the handler" aspect?
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