Sarge Reacting to other dogs

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Postby Brooke » July 29th, 2010, 2:14 pm

I skimmed through this thread so I apologize if I am redundant at all.

I think that teaching a solid "leave it" and "watch me" would be very helpful for you. I find that clicker training works best for these commands. If you can get these commands down, when you spot another dog tell him "watch me". Keep his focus on you and praise and reward him as you walk by for paying attention to you, and not the other dog. It is a LOT easier to get a dog's attention on you and reward good behavior before they are in that state than it is to break him of that state and stop it from escalating into a lunge/bark, etc.

I have a friend with a DR dog and she has benefited from long walks with me and my dog. We walk them on opposite sides of the street for a while. When she fixates, she gets a watch me command. Once her attention is off of my dog, she gets praised and rewarded. We continue until she is comfortable with us walking beside her, and can look at my dog calmly. without reacting. Then we slowly come closer and closer. Eventually, we can walk side by side perfectly fine, and they even play a little bit (on leash). It starts to take less time for her to become comfortable with his presence. I think that this is good for her because it shows her the acceptable way to interact with another dog. On a walk alone, she doesn't get any interaction at all.
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Postby plebayo » July 31st, 2010, 11:37 am

Haven't read this entire post but I agree with Brooke I think a solid "leave it" command should be put into place. It means when you say LEAVE IT he stops doing whatever the heck it is he's doing. Someone mentioned not correcting him when he even looks at another dog, in a way if you are correcting him for looking I think you're doing the right thing. Unfortunately it is looking at other dogs which starts his grump/whine/lunge behavior and so I think you need to get his attention on to you when he sees other dogs. He should be able to be in the same room with another dog and listen to YOU, focus on YOU, and do what he is told. It's really great he wants to react to another dog but he should be doing what YOU want him to do, not what HE wants to do.


One of my close friends has a dog aggressive pit mix. When we're in a new dog situation she just tells Mojo to leave it and Mojo can be around other dogs, she will even AVOID other dogs when they come towards her. However, my friend has spent a lot of time and energy teaching her to leave the other dogs alone and she has had to be pretty serious with her.

I come from the stance that any dog, dog aggressive or not should be able to sit across the room from another dog and leave them alone. They don't have to be friends, they don't have to like each other, but they shouldn't be looking at each other, challenging each other etc. IMO your dog should look to you for direction before it hauls off and tries to eat someone. You are the one in charge so I think a very strong leave it command would help out a lot.
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Postby mnp13 » July 31st, 2010, 9:19 pm

rdneckwife wrote:Michelle-I really think he just reacted to her because she's normally with the dog. The dog has never given him REASON to react. I would hate to think that the PO conditioned him, but it is possible. I didn't know him before I adopted Sarge from him. He did say his wife's pugs were mean to Sarge. Could that be a possibility?

Sure it could be. that conditioning isn't necessarily an intentional thing - Riggs was conditioned to hate kids by his former owner, and they had kids. I'm quite sure that they didn't really want him to end up like that, but that's what they did.

This is one of those cases where giving a correction for the behavior, more specifically a poorly timed correction, may be what caused the problem. See a dog, react to the dog, get corrected for the reaction. The dog begins to associate other dogs with getting punished. After a while, when the dog sees other dogs, it immediately reacts - basically saying "go away other dog! every time another dog is around I get my ass handed to me!" and then the owner does just that zing correction for something the dog does not understand. Reinforcing the dog's belief that other dogs bring punishment, and that the best way to deal with other dogs is to frighten them away.
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Postby dlynne1123 » August 1st, 2010, 4:53 pm

I only want to reiterate that DA does not eliminate you from titles for your dog! If you can gradually teach you dog to tolerate dogs and obey you with them as distractions you can acheive almost anything! I have two with CGCs, as they can walk on leash around other dogs, and TTs as well as working towards a Rally title and Comp Obedience. It doesn NOT mean its an end to all, just more work! But the worst thing you can do, IMO, is give up and keep a bedroom/backyard dog. You can teach him to be around them within reason! Good luck!
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Postby Tubular Toby » August 2nd, 2010, 8:57 pm

mnp13 wrote:This is one of those cases where giving a correction for the behavior, more specifically a poorly timed correction, may be what caused the problem. See a dog, react to the dog, get corrected for the reaction. The dog begins to associate other dogs with getting punished. After a while, when the dog sees other dogs, it immediately reacts - basically saying "go away other dog! every time another dog is around I get my ass handed to me!" and then the owner does just that zing correction for something the dog does not understand. Reinforcing the dog's belief that other dogs bring punishment, and that the best way to deal with other dogs is to frighten them away.



Agreed 100000%. I made this mistake with Toby over a year ago. I am still undoing all the associations that I (and my misguided trainer) created. Please do not punish your dog for reacting to another dog and definitely not for just looking at another dog. You will only be compounding your problems.
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Postby mnp13 » August 2nd, 2010, 10:22 pm

All that said, I also don't completely discount the use of corrections either. The whole "ignore the bad and reward the good" also doesn't work with self-rewarding behaviors, especially once a dog has passed the point that you can get them to take a reward or that you have a reward that they view as more interesting than the other dog.

Mis-timed corrections, be they handler error or trainer error, are still error on the part of the person, not the training. And frankly, though someone once told me that you "can't cause harm to a dog with a clicker, but you can cause harm with corrections" I disagree... an out of control dog can cause a lot of harm.
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Postby TheRedQueen » August 2nd, 2010, 10:28 pm

mnp13 wrote: And frankly, though someone once told me that you "can't cause harm to a dog with a clicker, but you can cause harm with corrections" I disagree... an out of control dog can cause a lot of harm.


You can't cause long-lasting damage to the dog's pysche with a clicker and a treat, like you can with an ill-timed correction or too harsh of a correction. If I click for the wrong thing, it's easier for the dog to "get over it", than for the dog to get over a too-harsh or ill-timed correction.

Of course an out-of-control dog can cause a lot of harm...;) We clicker trainers aren't stupid. :D
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Postby Tubular Toby » August 2nd, 2010, 10:38 pm

Haha Michelle, this is totally off subject, but I love the quote in your signature. Best worst show ever. hahaha
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Postby furever_pit » August 2nd, 2010, 10:44 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:You can't cause long-lasting damage to the dog's pysche with a clicker and a treat, like you can with an ill-timed correction or too harsh of a correction. If I click for the wrong thing, it's easier for the dog to "get over it", than for the dog to get over a too-harsh or ill-timed correction.

Of course an out-of-control dog can cause a lot of harm...;) We clicker trainers aren't stupid. :D


Depends on the dog.
There are plenty of dogs out there who can take corrections and can even recover from them quickly.

I think we ought to be wary of painting all dogs with the same brush if that makes sense.
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Postby TheRedQueen » August 2nd, 2010, 11:03 pm

furever_pit wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote:You can't cause long-lasting damage to the dog's pysche with a clicker and a treat, like you can with an ill-timed correction or too harsh of a correction. If I click for the wrong thing, it's easier for the dog to "get over it", than for the dog to get over a too-harsh or ill-timed correction.

Of course an out-of-control dog can cause a lot of harm...;) We clicker trainers aren't stupid. :D


Depends on the dog.
There are plenty of dogs out there who can take corrections and can even recover from them quickly.

I think we ought to be wary of painting all dogs with the same brush if that makes sense.


I'm not saying that you can do damage to *all* dogs...but you can't argue that you can't ruin a dog with a bad correction.

I'm not saying that no one should use corrections...or that everyone should clicker train...or that all dogs have issues with corrections. Not at all. But it's a simple fact that if you OVER correct, no matter the situation, you can mess a dog up.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » August 3rd, 2010, 7:19 am

Inara's the poster child of being screwed up from bad corrections! Took both of us a LOOOONG time to work through her issues. Hell we still are but now we're making progress in leaps and bounds.
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Postby mnp13 » August 3rd, 2010, 9:59 pm

TheRedQueen wrote: Of course an out-of-control dog can cause a lot of harm...;) We clicker trainers aren't stupid. :D


Never said you were sweet cheeks. :wink:

I was just stating a different opinion.
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Postby TheRedQueen » August 3rd, 2010, 10:29 pm

mnp13 wrote:
TheRedQueen wrote: Of course an out-of-control dog can cause a lot of harm...;) We clicker trainers aren't stupid. :D


Never said you were sweet cheeks. :wink:

.


Michelle :heartbeat:s me... :dance: she has terms of endearment for me... :D
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