LisaM wrote:amazincc wrote:Sorry... I don't compete w/my dogs, so I might be way off here... but it sounds to me, in comparison, that you'd be *smacking* your kid around because he/she likes reading more than playing baseball... where's the fun in that???
Well, I see it like this...my trainer is a 50X SchH 3 competitor and has coached countless other handlers on to the SchH 3 level, including many to regional and national level events; using this philosophy. He has also worked with a variety of breeds and temperaments and has been able to get results across the board. Why not at least give his theory a try? If anything, this approach is much harder on ME than it is on my dog and it will help make me a better handler....it's a lot of work on my part and it would certainly be easier for me to just go to something else as a means of motivation.... Most handlers would have either washed my dog by now or gave up and went to rewarding the dog with something it preferred. In all honesty I am often tempted to give in and let my dog chose what she wants to work for as do I consider washing her in favor of a dog that has drive that is more easily accessible. But, I am not ready to give up yet. She is an otherwise good dog..mentally stable, confident and healthy (probably stronger and can take more pressure than some of the easy to train "prey monsters") so I will continue to prod along for now. Often, the amount of pressure needed isn't even all that much, a decent sport prospect really should be able to handle it...if they can't then well.... Not to mention, if I allow her to chose what to work for in obedience, there is a good chance she may try the same thing in bitework...chosing the type of equipment she will bite...I am stubborn and will keep trying to build drive for the motivator which is best suited for this style of training...we'll see how long I last...
My trainer approached the protection phase with my dog with the same philosophy and here is the result less than a year into the training...does it look like she is being forced to do it? Do you see the dog showing stress? Does it appear that she is NOT HAVING FUN? I wish I was even half the handler my training director/helper is...I would love to pull the amount of ball drive from my dog that he was able to pull out for the bitework....maybe some day...
A year prior to this video, the dog had no interest in biting a sleeve...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTO59MbIDUA
Okay, I get what you're saying...but using the argument "my trainer is a 50X..." There is more than one way to skin a cat. If you get 50 trainers together in a room, the only thing they tend to agree upon is that everyone else is wrong.
That being said, I've also seen some very nice Schutzhund III routines that were 100% trained using a clicker...
TheRedQueen wrote:Jenn (OP) hasn't been back on to answer, but I'm pretty darn sure she won't use any compulsion for Nittany. She started out in a prong collar class with Murphy, her first dog, and he was ruined when he left. Jenn's a clicker trainer now...
I don't personally agree that positive punishment needs to be added for a retrieve. I have six dogs right now...and only one is a natural retriever. The other ones all were taught to retrieve using a clicker and treats, no force/compulsion/etc involved. Only negative punishment was used, if at all (removing my attention if they don't play).
I've got some crazy retrieving dogs now...three are trained as Service Dogs and will willingly and happily pick up many types of objects (plastic and glass bottles, aluminum cans, coins off a slick floor, credit cards, books, shoes, keys, pens/pencils and so much more...) all done without any force or compulsion or "pressure". I've trained herding dogs, sporting dogs, hounds and mixes to retrieve all using positive reinforcement. And yeah...my Xander was trained to tug using a tie-back schutzhund method...and when he wasn't broken (torn ACL), he could be lifted off the ground and smacked around without letting go of his tug. The Wiener also has a ferocious tug...but with his back, I don't do that often.
So...just saying...it can be done without force.
I gotta agree with you on that. Cy was trained using the ear pinch method (by his previous owner). Nisha was trained with a clicker. Nemo was trained using all +R (note: Nemo wasn't trained to do a formal retrieve - he was trained to find drugs - but part of that training involved finding a toy and making him possessive over it). Axo is a retrieving fool, and retrieves with no compulsion. Out of those dogs, Cy's retrieve is the most unreliable...I constantly find myself having to go back and use -R to get him to perform the behavior...