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Postby SLS61185 » May 25th, 2010, 2:14 am

since Patch got neutered at 6 months (Now 2 1/2) he got to play with another dog last week. He wasmaybe 5 months old when he got to play with the last dog. I mean, we take him to Petsmart and what not and he just stares at them and wants to sniff but that's it. He's usually got his head halti on so he can't play. When we walk him (again, on his head halti) and he sees one, he is just quiet but pulls really hard to get to them, won't bark at them or anything... Meanwhile the other dog is going absolutely nuts and barking. Our neighbor has 5 or 6 dogs. One lab and the rest are chihuahuah(SP?). He doesn't care about them. He knows they're there but can't see them because of the fence.

ANYWAYS! A girl I work with has a 6 month of Pit mix named Brewskie. He's much much smaller than Patch. So she brought Brew over and we let them meet out in the cul-de-sac on leashes and Patch's head halti and what not. Brew kept screaming and Patch kept pulling. Patch tried to hump Brew several times and Brew just took it all in while Patch was trying to figure out WTF was going on. We were out there for maybe 15 minutes? Finally took them out in the backyard and they went nuts. Brew would run and Patch would go after. THey played a little and got along fine so we took the leashes off.

Mike came outside and Brew ran in the house got in Patch's crate and Patch just sat there sniffing. Brew went and ate Patchy's food and Mike made them get out, because he said Patch seemed a little uncomfortable with that. THEN they went and got in our bed together!? My poor baby was so confused but he was wore out. Patch just got to where he'd follow Brew around the yard watching and then pinning him down while standing on him. Brew did go after his ears a couple of time and Patch warned him each time. I didn't want him to, but Mike said to let him because he was teaching Brew the rules.

So, all in all, it went really great. She's going to bring Brew over again soon so we can let them play some more! The only thing thatdid happen was when they were leaving we noticed spots of blood ALL over our deck and carpet. Finally noticed Patch's feet. He tore his pads up pretty bad from being in the cul-de-sac at first. One pade, he completely tore the skin off, one he tore a HUGE chunk out of, one he tore part of andthe skin was just hanging there. The other he scrapped up pretty bad. Took him to the vet the next day for it and they gave him some antibiotics, creame and some liquid epsion salt and they also glued the one part back.

Oh and no, sorry I don't have any pictures of it. Maybe next time. He slept for a good 2-3 days after that. I'm so proud of my lil' boy!
Stac

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Postby TheRedQueen » May 25th, 2010, 9:23 am

Sounds like a good time...but just watch for any signs of aggression...sounds like these two don't have the best social skills in the world! Chasing down another dog and pinning them isn't great play behavior...so I'd definitely keep an eye on them!

Also...use that playtime and greeting other dogs as your reinforcer...so if Patch is pulling, he doesn't get to go say hi...he only gets to move forward towards Brewski (or other dogs) if he's quiet and not pulling. If you allow him to move forward while he's pulling...he'll assume that it's okay in other circumstances! So use that greeting as his reward for good behavior! I use play as a reward all of the time...iI tell them...if you sit, your leash comes off to play with the others...simple as that! :)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby SLS61185 » May 26th, 2010, 3:34 am

Completely understand and thank you for the info. When we walk him or take him somewhere we don't really let him near other dogs. So this was still pretty new for the both of us (Mike and myself). A few months ago, I was walkin' him, and a lady was standing in her yard with her yappy dog... The dog came hauling ass down the drive way after Patch, and the only thing I could do was lift Patchmos front feet off the ground, stick his head in my arm and keep turning him.... All the while yellin' at the lady to get her stupid dog away from him. She got him back up there and it came running down again... Sooo same senrio again. Lady didn't even appologize.

Sometime last year, some people were out in their backyard with no fence and this huge lab came running towards us with his ball in his mouth. I made Patch sit and stay. He just kept lookin' at the dog like it wascrazy cause it kept growling at me when I tried to make it go away. The owner came out and appologized as much as she could and said that the dog must've heard Patch's collar and gets defensive about his ball - it was in the front yard.

ANYWAYS, Is the standing over Brew a dominant thing? Because like I said, Patch is much bigger than Brew. I think my friend said he's only 40lbs and at 6 months he's TINY compared to Patch. I'll try and work on the pulling issue though. When we see another dog, I usually make him sit until the dog is gone, but sometimes there's no holding him back. With him beinga BIG dog, I'm still getting used to walkin' him by myself and be okay with it. I know, it's no excuse, but it's mine, I guess.
Stac

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Postby amazincc » May 26th, 2010, 3:59 am

SLS61185 wrote:
ANYWAYS, Is the standing over Brew a dominant thing?


I don't think it's ALWAYS a dominant thing... my two take turns throwing each other around, trying to (on occasion) hump each others head, and are VERY physical when they play. I haven't really seen one trying to dominate the other on purpose, but they definitely take turns "being on the bottom"... and they enjoy it. Go figure... :giggle:
I also think most Pit Bulls (or dogs in general) have no real concept of their size/strength, and will try to play w/a little yapper as hard and as rough as they would w/a dog their own size. No malice intended, of course... but a body slam can still injure a smaller/lighter dog.
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Postby TheRedQueen » May 26th, 2010, 9:37 am

amazincc wrote:
SLS61185 wrote:
ANYWAYS, Is the standing over Brew a dominant thing?


I don't think it's ALWAYS a dominant thing... my two take turns throwing each other around, trying to (on occasion) hump each others head, and are VERY physical when they play. I haven't really seen one trying to dominate the other on purpose, but they definitely take turns "being on the bottom"... and they enjoy it. Go figure... :giggle:
I also think most Pit Bulls (or dogs in general) have no real concept of their size/strength, and will try to play w/a little yapper as hard and as rough as they would w/a dog their own size. No malice intended, of course... but a body slam can still injure a smaller/lighter dog.


Good point Christine...it's not always dominance...but to be a good playtime, they should be taking turns. If one play partner is constantly on their back, I don't consider that a good match. My gang plays with the Wiener constantly...they're 40-50# to his 10#...but they all switch off who is "on top"...sometimes Score is on the ground, with the Wiener nibbling his feet or legs, and sometimes Fig is upside down, writhing in between Score's legs, being nibbled.

Another thing to look for...if the bullying dog is taken away...does the play partner run back over for more playtime...or does the play partner take that opportunity to move away from the area?

Just recently, we tried to match up Murphy (fenella's hound mix) and Oreo (my pit bull foster)...figuring they'd be good play partners (Murph is historically too physical and a bully...but Oreo is very soft). She just got rolled three times in a row, and Murphy pinned her so she couldn't move away. As soon as he got pulled off, she'd hightail it out of the immediate area...she wasn't going back for more. Definitely a clear answer from her!

Now I'll post some articles from an expert...Dr. McConnell wrote a series of articles about playing...fascinating stuff:

Interesting play styles
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/in ... ay-styles/

Play Styles and status seeking: A correlation?
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/pl ... orrelated/

More on play styles: Dealing with problem players
http://www.theotherendoftheleash.com/mo ... m-players/
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby SLS61185 » May 27th, 2010, 1:49 am

Gotcha! Thank you! Will read some of them when I get some free time next week (Getting all four wisdom teeth taken out). Umm, as far as I can remember when I made Patch sit and hold him there because he snapped (what I learned was just 'corrected') at Brew for going after his ears... Brew was too busy sniffing our yard and me to really pay attention to Patch. But they did go backand forth, just, like I said, Patch would stand over him and put his weiner on Brews head.

I'll have to remember next time to tell PAtch to pretend that he's about 10lbs and maybe that will be easier, lol! My poor cow of a dog just doesn't know his manners around other dogs... But, like you said, neither does Brew. I just hope and want him to contiue to get along with other dogs.
Stac

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Postby mnp13 » May 27th, 2010, 11:05 am

Lots of good advice already, but I wanted to chime on a couple of things:

SLS61185 wrote:He's usually got his head halti on so he can't play. When we walk him (again, on his head halti) and he sees one, he is just quiet but pulls really hard to get to them,

I'm not a fan of halti's to start with, but if you use one and like it, that's great :) (no sarcasm intended.) However, he should not be pulling while wearing one. That defeats the purpose of them and it also puts stress on their upper neck in exactly the way that the design of the halter could cause problems long term - upward / backward stress on the cervical spine.

In reference to the humping stuff - when it's with dogs that know each other, I don't think it's a big deal. (Inara and Connor spend every waking minute doing that when they are together :rolleyes2: ) But when it's dogs that don't know each other, or when it's very "one sided" I think that you have to be careful about it. When one dog is pinning the other down, or one is vocalizing or repeatedly having to "warn" the other, then things can escalate suddenly.

It does sound like it went well overall! I would recommend that you not allow them near crates, beds or food/dishes next time though, at least until they get to know each other a little better.

Erin has a TON of experience with all of this introduction / play stuff, so I'm sure she can steer you in the right direction with what to watch for.
Michelle

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Postby TheRedQueen » May 27th, 2010, 11:32 am

SLS61185 wrote:I'll have to remember next time to tell PAtch to pretend that he's about 10lbs and maybe that will be easier, lol! My poor cow of a dog just doesn't know his manners around other dogs... But, like you said, neither does Brew. I just hope and want him to contiue to get along with other dogs.


It's all about knowing how to self-handicap...and it comes with experience, and self-control...some dogs just don't ever get it. Oreo has had to learn how to handicap herself with the Wiener...for a long time, they didn't go out together, it was crate/rotate...but slowly, I've allowed them to be out together...now that she has a LOT of play experience. The dogs have to play "fair"...or it just not fun for them...just like humans! lol No one wants to get picked on and pushed around. So be aware of how the two are playing, and make sure it's mutual. If Brew wants to move away, make sure he's allowed to do so.

And like Michelle said, don't let them near resources...not near crates, beds, bowls, etc...

We had a dog here last weekend that had NO idea how to play...she kept body-blocking Score...and then would put her paws up on his back, or put her head over in the T formation...(very, very rude). Luckily my awesome brown puppy knows how to handle dogs like this, and he stayed calm and just got stiff and froze until she got off of him. It went into a little scuffle twice, but again...Score knew how to diffuse the situation. She finally went off and sniffed around the yard and left him alone for the most part. If he wasn't so good at greetings, it could have gotten very ugly, very quickly.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby SLS61185 » May 28th, 2010, 12:38 am

mnp13 wrote:I'm not a fan of halti's to start with, but if you use one and like it, that's great (no sarcasm intended.)


Understood and it's all good! It's the only one that I've felt comfortable walkin' him on. I'm still working on him to get him to walk like a 'normal' dog and at a 'normal' speed.

TheRedQueen wrote:And like Michelle said, don't let them near resources...not near crates, beds, bowls, etc...


Well, there's a water dish outside and they were drinkin' out of that one fine. Should I just go ahead and put a second one out for when Brew does come back over again? Do I give Brew a new one or Patch the new one?

mnp13 wrote:But when it's dogs that don't know each other, or when it's very "one sided" I think that you have to be careful about it. When one dog is pinning the other down, or one is vocalizing or repeatedly having to "warn" the other, then things can escalate suddenly


I was a little taken aback when he was humping Brew because I've never seen him hump anything - even when he still had his boy parts.

Another thing... As far as toys go - Do I let them play with the same things give them a bunch of different things to play with just to be safe? Like I said, next week when I have some free time, I'll read the articles and learn some new things.
Stac

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SLS61185
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