Ball With a Herder

[BullyLady]

So I was at a bar-b-q last night and one of the other guest's border collie Luna was there. Of course I, being the dog dork I am, gravitated more towards the dog than the people.... Spent most of the time petting her and the wild lab in attendance while chatting with people. We were up on a raised deck and as the festivities were winding down I noticed Luna with her tennis ball kind of pacing down below, so I excused myself and went to throw her ball for her.

HOLY COW.

First of all, I preface this saying I've never had a ball playing dog, so maybe I didn't know what to expect, but it was a little creepy. The only dog I've played with is a lab who I dogsat for 3 weeks (who was the wild lab there). She was more like, playwithmeplaywithmeplaywith me though, than focused on the ball. More about the attention, less about the ball. Luna is SUPER well behaved, dropped the ball nicely at my feet and then backed off like 5 feet. She watched for me to touch the ball and as soon as I did she RAN like 50 feet out, I've never played with a dog who runs before you throw, but then the creepiness..... She turned around, got waaay down so her belly was brushing the grass, and creepy crawled towards me while maintaining this CRAZY INTENSE eye contact! WHOA! It freaked me out a little and I threw it just so she wouldn't jump me, but then she brought it back nice as pie. Apparently this is how this dog plays.

Do all herders play ball like that? I'm not sure I like it....

[maberi]

Borders are pretty "special", and many are super intense and pretty OCD. The stalking behavior you are describing is pretty classic as well.

[TheRedQueen]

Yes, herders are like that, minus the creeping/stalking...border collies are slinky little weasels...drives me nuts.

But the intensity, the outrun (running out to get "around" the ball), the "absolutely must throw something for me", the crazy eye contact...yeah...that's a herder.

I them.

Score plays like a herding dog...he grew up around 'em after all...he can be a bit *ahem* more intense than the others even...

[amazincc]

Yup, absolutely... that's exactly how Daisy plays ball.

[mnp13]

Yup, typical herder behavior.

THAT is why I laugh when people say that there are not "breed" behaviors. Do all herders behave that way? No, of course not. Is that typical of a herder to some degree? Yes.

Connor does the "drop the ball and back away" thing, and if you don't throw it, he comes back to you, picks it up and moves it closer. Or come closer, looks at the ball, makes eye contact with you, then looks at the ball, then makes eye contact, then looks at the ball, then makes eye contact... eventually he'll pick it up and chew it "at" you.

[AllAmericanPUP]

That's how ozzy plays but he's not a herder.

[PetieMarie22]

Border Collies always catch my eye and I'm very interested in them. They are said to be the smartest dog breed. They are also known to be super high energy. It's hard enough keeping up with a 3 year old pit bull!

[amazincc]

I find it fascinating to watch the different styles of play when it comes to different breeds... Daisy IS a typical herder, and her playing is much less physical and a lot more chase-oriented.
The boys simply don't see the point in running for the ball before they see where I'm going to throw it, and I often get the "WTF???"-look when Daisy starts running... they'd much rather wait for her to get it, and then try to wrestle it away from her. It always cracks me up...
I can see where different play styles can create "problems"... Daisy does not enjoy being slammed to the ground, or head-butted, or sat on... actually, she'd rather not be touched at all while chasing her beloved ball.
I often call the boys my "gladiators" because their playing always involves full-on body contact w/lots of grabbing, play biting, and some damned fine wrestling moves.
Very, very different ways of interacting w/each other... that why the "old lady" isn't in a lot of pictures w/the boys anymore - they are way too "paws-on" for her.

[PetieMarie22]

Daisy does not enjoy being slammed to the ground, or head-butted, or sat on...

No???
It took along time for Petie to finally meet a playmate that wasn't annoyed by her rough play. When Petie would try to play with other dogs they would look at her like "Who invited the bull to the China shop!" The lab/pit mix that lives behind us likes to play in the Wrestlemania style.

[Malli]

Border Collies always catch my eye and I'm very interested in them. They are said to be the smartest dog breed. They are also known to be super high energy. It's hard enough keeping up with a 3 year old pit bull!

Most dog "intelligence" tests(all that I've heard of) are graded on trainability, so not smarts but following direction, although most people also equate good listening ability or trainability with smarts as well

[furever_pit]

Herders are SO different from our bulldogs. I find it pretty interesting to see how different they are.
I know Cairo pretty much came with the retrieve built into him and it's made it very fun to work with him on those exercises. He doesn't drop the frisbee though, just keeps headbutting you with it until you either play tug with him or out him so you can throw it again.

[maberi]

Herders are SO different from our bulldogs. I find it pretty interesting to see how different they are.
I know Cairo pretty much came with the retrieve built into him and it's made it very fun to work with him on those exercises. He doesn't drop the frisbee though, just keeps headbutting you with it until you either play tug with him or out him so you can throw it again.

It IS very interesting and one of the sports where you see a HUGE difference in style is freestyle disc. So many of the herders work the field in a circular pattern (go figure). Kayden on the other hand is VERY linear and trying to cram aspects of disc that cater to circular dogs (around the world, outruns, etc..) can make for a very difficult time. He's just not programmed that way...

PS - I would work Cairo on multiple discs if I were you. Drop = the other disc activating

[TheRedQueen]

Border Collies always catch my eye and I'm very interested in them. They are said to be the smartest dog breed. They are also known to be super high energy. It's hard enough keeping up with a 3 year old pit bull!

Most dog "intelligence" tests(all that I've heard of) are graded on trainability, so not smarts but following direction, although most people also equate good listening ability or trainability with smarts as well

There was a study that I've seen referenced in different dog training books...it had dogs doing a maze to get to food (or some other reinforcer). The sheltie sat and waited for assistance...the basenji (so called "hard to train" breed) went through and figured it out quickly. Showed how some breeds are bred to look to humans for what to do next, and some are bred to work things out on their own. Herders are bred to be biddable...easy to train...doesn't make them necessarily smarter than other breeds, just different. My hounds have been smart...just not as willing to work with me for little pay-off.

Here's a link to an article that references the study...
http://www.vdare.com/misc/080325_miele.htm

[furever_pit]

PS - I would work Cairo on multiple discs if I were you. Drop = the other disc activating

If I were imprinting him for disc dog I probably would. But for FR, that's just not the best way to do it. I reactivate when he barks because it transfers to the decoy later in the blind search and in bite work in general. I also use tug with a soft frisbee as a way to work on his counters.

[maberi]

If I were imprinting him for disc dog I probably would. But for FR, that's just not the best way to do it. I reactivate when he barks because it transfers to the decoy later in the blind search and in bite work in general. I also use tug with a soft frisbee as a way to work on his counters.

Ok, I guess I was confused when you said you had to out him (which I assumed was a forced out) to get the disc

[katiek0417]

I will say that with my guys (herders) they are definitely focused...on anything they want. Some more than others...

Jue will 100% stare at something...even if you try to hide it from him, he stares at the place where he thinks you put it.

Cy, you can see it in when we work...he finds one decoy on the field that he wants, and it doesn't matter what the other decoys are doing, he will sit there and stare (and shake) at the one he wants...

The other dogs...all do that same focus thing...but I've used it to my advantage to get an attention heel...

[TheRedQueen]

I will say that with my guys (herders) they are definitely focused...on anything they want. Some more than others...

Jue will 100% stare at something...even if you try to hide it from him, he stares at the place where he thinks you put it.

Cy, you can see it in when we work...he finds one decoy on the field that he wants, and it doesn't matter what the other decoys are doing, he will sit there and stare (and shake) at the one he wants...

The other dogs...all do that same focus thing...but I've used it to my advantage to get an attention heel...

Xander will only play with the ONE ball that he decides is "in play"...and will stare at that ball, follow that ball (say, in another dog's mouth), and will only pick up that ball in a pile of balls. The next time, he could chose a different one...but then THAT'S the one that he plays with. Hard to deal with when we were disc doggin'.

Sawyer plays with invisible toys...'nuff said.

[amazincc]

Sawyer plays with invisible toys...'nuff said.

[SLS61185]

Patch LOVES to play ball... Except he doesn't like to really bring it back. If you're outside and you throw it, he runs after it and won't bring it back. If you're in the house playing ball he'll run after it, bring it back and will hit you with his feet when you tel him to drop it. We're still working on the drop and leave it thing, so he doesn't understand it still. When he DOES drop it, he'll try to grab it before you. My dog is just crazy.

[Malli]

There was a study that I've seen referenced in different dog training books...it had dogs doing a maze to get to food (or some other reinforcer). The sheltie sat and waited for assistance...the basenji (so called "hard to train" breed) went through and figured it out quickly. Showed how some breeds are bred to look to humans for what to do next, and some are bred to work things out on their own. Herders are bred to be biddable...easy to train...doesn't make them necessarily smarter than other breeds, just different. My hounds have been smart...just not as willing to work with me for little pay-off.

Here's a link to an article that references the study...
http://www.vdare.com/misc/080325_miele.htm

and I own that book

But its the only mention of such a test I've ever heard of. Most of the tests seemed to be based on biddability/tranability..